My 2009 Camry didn't make it!

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  • My 2009 Camry didn't make it!

    I HAD a 2009 Toyota Camry Hybrid. It had 416,000 miles when the hybrid battery light came on.I wanted to get 500,000 miles. I probably could have achieved that goal, but traded it off anyway. I found new replacement hybrid batteries for $1800 plus $200 for shipping and I probably could have installed it myself, but have an acquaintance that does it for $200. That would have been $2200 plus needing $500 in tires in the next few months. So I decided to trade it in (only got $1500) which is reasonable for what it is going to need and with the miles.

    I had no idea of how long a hybrid's battery would last. The scanner said the battery had life in in and was not dead, just below the minimum for continued use. From reading, I probably could have driven it another 4000 to 5000 miles or so, or 3 to 5 months. The hybrids do not have a reverse gear in the transmission, but the wheels have an electric motor that not only gives assist for slow speed or starting off, but give it the reverse travel. Once the hybrid totally dies, it will NOT run at all, even though it has a strong 12V battery and gas engine. Electronics controls that aspect. The Hybrid battery cannot be disconnected and have the car (Camry) still run.

    With the low Hybrid battery warning light on, it will not allow cruise control, which is what I rely on daily. Starting off is also a tad clunky as it has to rely on the gas engine, which is like starting off in 2nd gear in a stick shift. I averaged roughly 33.8 mpg over its life. Many times I averaged 34+ and 35 mpg over a full tank of gas, but when running into head winds which we have often it would knock the milage down to 32+ or low 33 mpg.

    I had a class 2 trailer hitch on it and pulled a HF 1500GVW trailer many times moving stuff for my daughters - probably 5 round trips from the Memphis area to Dallas. Probably 10 trips to Springfield MO area. Numerous trips of 70 miles round trip to HD and Lowes.

    It was a good car. Change spark plugs once, put new brake pads on at 300,000; Had a AC valve begin to leak at 410,00 and cost $110 to fix. That AC was still blowing COLD air. Three sets of 90,000 / 80/000 mile tires (2 sets of Michelins and 1 set Pirelli tires) plus originals and one other set of 50,000 mile tires. (I got the full amount of miles on each set and still had not worn to the "bar" on any set).

    I drove 420 miles round trip to a conference with a couple of other people with me three weeks ago, and they commented on how smooth it rode and how much power it had - when going around slow vehicles. It just hit 416,000 on the trip. The engine was a getting 3000 miles per quart of oil.

    GREAT Car. It will be remembered. I certainly got my money's worth out of it. I paid $15,000 for it used in 2012 and paid it off in 3 years. Wife's Rav4 is a hybrid, (bought new) but now I am skeptical of battery life, but LOML will trade hers off before that kind of miles. I had no idea how long hybrid batteries would last.

    I traded it in for another Camry (SE), but non Hybrid. I'm taking a chance here. I bought a previously on Camry SE. Looking at the new ones, they were outlandish in price. I have a mentality that is just too old but I can't get over it. I am not ready to pay such high prices.
    Last edited by leehljp; 09-04-2022, 09:31 AM.
    Hank Lee

    Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted!

  • #2
    Look at this way. Tesla battery packs are supposedly good for 300K to 500K miles and the packs cost $19K plus labor to replace. My neighbor has a Chevy Bolt and is still waiting for GM to replace the battery pack under warranty. He parks it outside and has reduced the DOD and recharge percentages to minimize the fire hazard. He loves it.
    Jim Frye
    The Nut in the Cellar.
    ”Sawdust Is Man Glitter”

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    • #3
      Well Lee, if you've managed 416,000 miles on it, I don't think it owes you much, as the saying goes. IMO that is pretty unusual performance for most any car. I've got about 217,000 miles on my 2006 Dodge Grand Caravan and just spend about $800 on it a month ago for two new tires, balance and alignment, and some coolant problem fix. It still runs well but the body is pathetic and I've got some kind of turn-signal problem that no one seems to be able to fix.

      I'd really like to buy a new or at least much newer car, and since we don't do a lot of long distance traveling, an all-electric would probably be ideal, IF they could get the battery challenges resolved. The Doctor who lives next door to me, just bought a small Chrysler SUV that is either hybrid or full-electric. I notice that he has it on charge almost every night, which makes me wonder about it.

      How big are the batteries in a typical electric (volumn-wise, I mean... I don't know their size, the number required, etc.). We have one charging station about a block away, in the parking lot of a local grocery-chain store, but it is rare that I see any car parked and charging there. I suspect most everyone just charges them at their home. The Doc, has a three-stall garage, but charges his vehical outside at the back of the house, which is probably wise considering a few events I've read about in the national news reports.

      I can only imagine the inconvenience of being on a long vacation trip with an electric vehicle and having to spend an overnight charging your vehicle every 300-400 miles. Hopefully someone will come up with a design where you can just pull into a service center, slide the power pack out and replace it with a freshly charged pack. Not knowing the physical size of today's battery space probably makes that a far off future fantasy.

      In any case, it's nice to know that your Honda has held up so well, thanks for posting,

      CWS
      Last edited by cwsmith; 09-04-2022, 03:16 PM.
      Think it Through Before You Do!

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      • #4
        CWS: IIRC: Teslas battery packs contain 1,700 individual cells and occupy nearly all of the floor plan between the wheel wells. Imagine 1,700 batteries slightly larger than a AA battery (16 mm dia. x 80 mm long) arranged vertically next to one another. I have read that if one cell fails, the entire battery pack is toast and costs $19K plus labor to replace. I also saw an article that there is a company that can diagnose and bypass the failed cell, thus restoring the pack's functionality for $5K. There are several new form factors under development for EV applications, so future EV designs will likely change dramatically. There is a European EV design that uses an automated battery pack exchange design, but it hasn't been widely adopted yet.
        Last edited by Jim Frye; 09-04-2022, 04:11 PM.
        Jim Frye
        The Nut in the Cellar.
        ”Sawdust Is Man Glitter”

        Comment


        • #5
          FWIW the largest Tesla 100 kWh battery weighs 625 kg, roughly 1300 pounds. (315 miles)
          A modest 60 kWh pack would weigh around 800 pounds.(190 miles)
          Hybrids with 40 or 80 mile battery will weigh proportionally 165 or 330 pounds.


          Loring in Katy, TX USA
          If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
          BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

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          • #6
            Not exactly like sliding out a couple of rail-mounted, suitcase size batteries and replacing them with newly-charged units, would it be! Oh well.

            Cars have been, at least in my lifetime, pretty much designed around a 300-plus mile range (those that I've purchased/driven anyway) Having an electric that takes you only a couple hundred miles would not be highly attractive to a lot of people I would think. My local driving habits are about 90 miles a week and should I take an occasional trip to any of the larger cities like Buffalo, Syracuse, or NYC I'd be looking at around 400 miles round trip. So locally an electric would be fine, but going to another city in the state, I'd be pushing the limits on a purely electric vehicle and should I care to drive to Washington, DC (307 miles) that's most likely a stopover to recharge before I get there and another stopover before I could return.

            The other power consuming things I note is that from what I see in commercials, the EV is loaded with battery draining accessories, with an abundance of lighting, most looking more decorative than practical, and of course there's heating and A/C. Admittingly I don't know the full story, but it appears that so far such vehicles are designed for local travel at this point.

            CWS
            Think it Through Before You Do!

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            • #7
              300 miles seems to be the design point right now. My 2013 Civic has just over 300 on a fillup. Even the class 6, 7, & 8 trucks are there. There is a Tesla Supercharger installation near me with 8 "pumps". Half of the cars I see plugged in there have out of state plates. The charging station is located in with a bunch of restaurants and a big box grocery store within walking distance, so it's a convenient place to take a break while your EV fills up.
              Jim Frye
              The Nut in the Cellar.
              ”Sawdust Is Man Glitter”

              Comment


              • cwsmith
                cwsmith commented
                Editing a comment
                How long does it take to fully charge the usual EV from a battery low point?

              • capncarl
                capncarl commented
                Editing a comment
                EV charging stations located in shopping centers and near restaurants seems like a nice idea, and it is until you have to recharge your EV late at night or early early morning. I’m not a scaredy-cat person but I would have a real problem with this charging situation if I was traveling overnight in a strange town and having to sit in my car for an undetermined time while the batteries charge. I do not have a solution for this problem but I don’t think this is it!

              • leehljp
                leehljp commented
                Editing a comment
                I am not the one in the know by any means, but several articles I have read over the past year said something to the effect of about 65%-75 % charging in the first hour and several hours for a 100% top off. If that is the case, it would be a boon for city driving.

            • #8
              I just bought a Hyundai Tucson hybrid and I hope I get even 1/2 of what you got. I got it new and paid a lot more than you did! So far I am liking it and I seem to be getting better than what I'm supposed to on my 30mile commute. I thought about getting a full EV to get the free HOV sticker but I'm glad I didn't. HOV doesn't start until I'm closer to work, and there are so many EVs on the road now that they're phasing out the program.

              My coworker has a plug-in hybrid EV. It has a gas tank which is really just to run a motor to charge the battery. Our new parking lot at work has about 15-20 EV chargers which have the best parking spots. I only ever see one or two people charging even though I see a few Teslas and full EV in the garage. The guy says the rate is pretty high and it would cost him almost as much as regular gas. He parks in another company's lot about 1/4mile away that isn't controlled and has free chargers. Otherwise he charges at home for a fraction of what work charges.

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              • capncarl
                capncarl commented
                Editing a comment
                Great, more “reserved” parking spaces close to the door! It they decided to put EV charging stations in Lowes or Home Depot parking lots the regular paying customers will have to park next to the road, with all the reserved parking for handicapped, veterans, pregnant moms, employee of the day, contractor parking, Covid pick up and now EV charging.

              • cwsmith
                cwsmith commented
                Editing a comment
                capncarl,

                Fortunately neither my wife or I have any 'handicaps' at our age of 78, although my knees are highly uncomfortable at times. Even then, I respectfully will not violate a handicap parking space. But everytime I go to my local Lowes I sort of laugh at the number of handicap parking spaces that are there. It's all of the lanes, six to eight spaces back from the store front. That's about 20% of the parking lot. Most are empty. But it makes me wonder why so much space? Really, if you are handicapped, then what are you doing in a store where almost everything is self-service; pushing a cart full of items, mostly heavy, that you have to load load yourself, with some muscle-strength and dexterity from a storage shelf that isn't at all designed for anyone with a physical handicap? Then you have to carry it to your vehicle and unload it yourself? Home Depot is just as bad, but they have only a few handicap parking areas and those are right up front.,

                CWS

            • #9
              The charging cost varies from network to network and some can be quite high. I now pay $0.06/KWH at home as our electricity is 100% wind and solar generated, so would only use one of the stations for travel. My neighbor's Bolt is delivering just over 95 equivalent mpg so running around town is pretty cheap. Charge times vary all over the place, but a half hour seems to be the norm for the highest rate charging stations. Charging at home is usually at a low rate, so overnight is what most users plan on. My electric riding mower charges off of a 15 amp. 120 volt outlet and can take up to 8 hours from a complete shut down point. Right now, It's 14 times cheaper to run than a comparable gas mower. I just mowed my 10,000 sq.ft. lawn and the recharge cost $0.07 and took 2 1/2 hours.
              Jim Frye
              The Nut in the Cellar.
              ”Sawdust Is Man Glitter”

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              • #10
                I couldn’t resist!

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                • #11
                  Lee, that’s great mileage on your Toyota, I had a 1980 Honda Civic 1300 cvcc that I purchased new. It was one of those they advertise on tv for $4,999. Or something like that, and when you get to the dealership they tell you they only had 2 and they just sold the last one. My reply was when the next truck comes in I want the first $4,999. One off the truck, and left a $4,999.00 check for deposit. I didn’t figure I’d never see the car and knew they couldn’t cash the check because there was no money in that account. Several weeks later they called and said the car was ready for me to pick up! I drove it over 300,000 miles, before each of my boys took it off to college. I got it back with well over 400,000 miles on it. It had an exhaust manifold leak so I took the manifolds off to investigate and found that the head had eroded so bad that there wasn’t any metal left where the valve stems were and the exhaust had hollowed out to the outside of the head. I found a 1 year later engine/transmission that a man had rebuilt the engine and transmission for his 16:yr old to learn to drive in. The teenager promptly drove it in a ditch and wiped out the passenger side. $500.00 later I drove it no telling how many miles and finally sold it to a lady that needed a fuel efficient car to drive 80 miles a day to school. She finished 4 yrs of college and gave it to someone else. I later found out that they drove it to the buying spot for Obamas cash for clunkers. I’d bet that Honda had over 600,000 miles on it when they crushed it. I wish I still had it!

                  Comment


                  • leehljp
                    leehljp commented
                    Editing a comment
                    My daughters and my wife both wonder how I got so many miles from it. 310,000 miles before needing new brake pads, 320,000 new spark plugs. I averaged 33.8 when I bought it and I was averaging 33.8 when I traded it in. I was somewhat rough on vehicles as a teen (no wrecks) and as a young adult. But with the crowds in Japan (I went when I was 40) there wasn't enough space to be rough on a vehicle. Coming home just under 12 years ago, I have become more "take care of my vehicle." LOML is always telling me to Speed up 2 more MPH, Speed up again. I go the speed limits or maybe 2 mph or so over. Even on the interstates, I rarely go 5 over and that is if I am causing a hazard for going ONLY 5 over. Anyway, my middle daughter asked me last year how I got so many miles and her car's brakes wear out at 100,000 miles and she doesn't get but 120,000 - 130,000 before severely needing to trade in. LOML can't get but 150,000 at the most. I tell them they wait too long to stop and have to mash the brakes too hard, And they start off too hard. When Passing, they don't wait around. I don't push my vehicles that much. I am not soft, on mine. I guess I have hauled a 1500GVW trailer behind mine at highway speeds for a good 20,000-25,000 miles, and the trailer was loaded most of the time too. I just don't force the stops or race off the line.

                    AND I service my vehicles religiously. ON my Camry, I only used 0-20 full synthetic oil.

                    NOTE: I recently read that most engine wear takes place more in the first minute after cranking than the next hour of use. That is because the oil has not circulated enough. For that reason, 0-16 or 0-20 oil circulates faster producing less wear in the first minute of use than 20W or 30W.
                    Last edited by leehljp; 09-06-2022, 09:17 PM.

                  • Jim Frye
                    Jim Frye commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Both our 2013 Civic and 2017 Fit state 0W20. I change oil and filter whenever the maintenance minder says there is 15% oil life left. Also change the filter each time. Been using full synthetic oil since 1980 and no engine issues with any vehicle or 4 cycle motor. All run over 100K miles. The Hondas use no measurable oil between changes even at 100K miles.

                  • atgcpaul
                    atgcpaul commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Hank, do you have a brother in MD? I think he was leading the slow procession of cars on my commute this morning.

                • #12
                  Found a good picture illustrating EV battery packs.
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                  Jim Frye
                  The Nut in the Cellar.
                  ”Sawdust Is Man Glitter”

                  Comment


                  • #13
                    And then there's the battery pack for my mower.
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                    Last edited by Jim Frye; 09-13-2022, 07:28 PM.
                    Jim Frye
                    The Nut in the Cellar.
                    ”Sawdust Is Man Glitter”

                    Comment


                    • Jim Frye
                      Jim Frye commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Actually, it's not too bad. Remove three bolts, disconnect the main power plug and the whole pack slides out on a nylon glide tray. All you need is an 11 1/2" tall dolly. Notice mine is made from a bunch of 2by scraps. From there you do have to lift the individual 50 pound batteries, but they do have handles.

                    • capncarl
                      capncarl commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Optical illusion! I thought the batteries were as large as my boat house battery (140 lbs). My neighbor said that his Ryobi elec zero turn used golf cart batteries? His has been out of commission for several months because of a bad charging plug or something.

                    • Jim Frye
                      Jim Frye commented
                      Editing a comment
                      My batteries are group 24 case (75 ahr. each). The charging port on the Ryobi 48 volt mowers has a rather complex safety interlock circuitry buried in the back of the module. It contains several IC modules and if one dies, the entire charging port must be replaced. They can be obtained online. Ryobi parts can be hard to find due to China's Covid issues.

                  • #14
                    capncarl: Here's the back side of the Ryobi riding mower charging port with the thick black rubbery covering removed. Maybe it will help your neighbor.
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                    Last edited by Jim Frye; 09-18-2022, 10:07 AM.
                    Jim Frye
                    The Nut in the Cellar.
                    ”Sawdust Is Man Glitter”

                    Comment


                    • capncarl
                      capncarl commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Thanks, he now has it operational, it was dead for most of the mowing season though. I heard him mowing up pine limbs and pine cones this week with it. He is one to buy the latest technology.
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