Lance Could Be Innocent

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  • JR
    The Full Monte
    • Feb 2004
    • 5636
    • Eugene, OR
    • BT3000

    #16
    Originally posted by Bruce Cohen
    Steroids totally mess with your love life.
    The miracle is that he was able to conceive a child with his most recent wife, after having had testicular cancer!

    There's a lot of stuff getting thrown around in this thread. I'll try to clear up some misconceptions.

    If Armstrong doped, he probably used EPO more than steroids. For distance athletes EPO helps by providing extra oxygen-carrying blood cells to fire the muscles. Steroids are used to aid in recovery after strenuous workouts and more effective for anerobic sports like football.

    The Lance Armstrong Foundation exists primarily as an advocacy group for cancer survivors. They actually fund very little research dedicated to "finding a cure". Armstrong felt that those who survived cancer needed help that wasn't available in other programs that focused on chemical and biological research. I point this out, not to denigrate their activities, but to properly identify them.

    Reading the financial statements of LAF can be very instructional. They actually spent ~$5M in grants in 2011. The remainder of their ~$30M in expenses was largely overhead, a lot of it in "lobbying".

    Something that has troubled me for some time is that Livestrong.org and Livestrong.com are largely indistinguishable. Livetrong.com is a lifestyle site, at which one can buy a number of products. It is my understanding that Lance is the principle owner of this business, although I'm not certain of that. In any case, I find it a little troubling that a commercial venture is so closely tied to a charitable venture.

    Ok, changing trains of thought here, it is unlikely Armstrong will be prosecuted criminally. The feds did a thorough investigation and elected not to proceed with charges.

    There's no way Armstrong has spent $40M defending himself. He's never had to appear in court. He does spend money on lawyers and PR, for sure, but it has to be a LOT less than $40M.

    No evidence has been presented to anyone, so it can't be "overwhelming".

    Armstrong was on a very creidible run to an upcoiming Kona Ironman race. He had a legitimate chance for a podium finish. He is now banned from tha sport, too.

    Finally, on a philosophical note, I'm less troubled by whether a professional athlete "cheated" by doping than I am about its effect on society (even if the athlete does good things with his winnings). The case is frequently made that they are pros, can afford proper medical advice, and they're big boys who can take care of themselves. However, IMHO, if we turn a blind eye to this kind of thing it will trickle down to amateur and junior athletes. They will feel compelled to use drugs to stay competitive. That will result in serious physical problems and deaths. Somehow doping with PEDs has to be stopped.

    JR
    JR

    Comment

    • herb fellows
      Veteran Member
      • Apr 2007
      • 1867
      • New York City
      • bt3100

      #17
      I will admit to not being totally knowledgable about this case, but so far I only know that he passed scads of drug tests.

      Exactly what evidence has the other side offered, other than innuendo and hearsay?

      Have they explained how he passed hundreds of drug tests and never got caught?

      Has any witness been offered so that their story could be vetted for accuracy?

      Have they shown a single instance of proof that he was taking drugs?

      Maybe he's guilty and maybe he isn't, but I also don't like the thought of a deep pockets agency going after one guy with what seems suspiciously like a vengeance. Has anyone questioned their motives for what seems to be a vindictive witch hunt?
      You don't need a parachute to skydive, you only need a parachute to skydive twice.

      Comment

      • Black wallnut
        cycling to health
        • Jan 2003
        • 4715
        • Ellensburg, Wa, USA.
        • BT3k 1999

        #18
        Originally posted by herb fellows
        snip Has anyone questioned their motives for what seems to be a vindictive witch hunt?
        Yes, Surprisingly the Federal Judge that dismissed Lance's last court challenge, sadly I can not find the quote due to Fox sports rewrite of the story that had the quote.
        Donate to my Tour de Cure


        marK in WA and Ryobi Fanatic Association State President ©

        Head servant of the forum

        ©

        Comment

        • dbhost
          Slow and steady
          • Apr 2008
          • 9504
          • League City, Texas
          • Ryobi BT3100

          #19
          Slashdot has some good info and perspective on the Lance Armstrong thing...

          http://science.slashdot.org/story/12...f-drug-testing
          Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel. Please check out and subscribe to my Workshop Blog.

          Comment

          • JR
            The Full Monte
            • Feb 2004
            • 5636
            • Eugene, OR
            • BT3000

            #20
            USADA is an independent agency. It does not have unlimited funds available to carry out witch hunts. It receives its funding, in the form of grants, from two sources, the US Government and USOC. Their jurisdiction in this matter, if not their motives, is clearly spelled out in thier agreements with WADA and UCI.


            The judge in Texas, who ruled on Armstrong's motion to quash, called in question their motives based on Armstrong's presentation, but ruled in favor of USAC to proceed. There was never any doubt as to their standing.

            From their web site:

            As a non-profit, non-governmental agency, our programs:
            • Provide deterrence and preservation of sport for athletes, coaches, students, teachers, parents, scientists and more through education and resources;
            • Include numerous protections for athletes to ensure that only athletes who are guilty of a doping violation are sanctioned;
            • Strive to systematically identify and sanction those individuals who are engaged in the effort to gain an advantage over athletes who are competing clean; and
            • Fund pioneering research for the detection of doping substances and techniques, and the pursuit of scientific excellence in doping control.


            From their 2011 annual report:

            Revenues, Grants and Other Support
            2011 2010
            Federal grants $ 8,982,000 $ 10,000,000
            United States Olympic Committee (USOC)
            contractual agreement 3,450,000 3,450,000
            Investment return 17,719 133,844
            Income from third parties 1,272,751 1,501,312

            Total revenues, grants and other support 13,722,470 15,085,156

            JR

            Comment

            • Black wallnut
              cycling to health
              • Jan 2003
              • 4715
              • Ellensburg, Wa, USA.
              • BT3k 1999

              #21
              And the USOC gets it funding from where?

              The judge ruled as he must given the arguments brought before him. That does not mean that the evidence USADA purports to have is convincing. It is a civil matter and he was not the trier of fact. Stated differently he ruled on the motion not on the validity or truefulness of the claim of USADA.

              By the way JR thanks for posting what you have in this thread! It seems you are on top of the news about the subject.
              Last edited by Black wallnut; 08-24-2012, 04:33 PM.
              Donate to my Tour de Cure


              marK in WA and Ryobi Fanatic Association State President ©

              Head servant of the forum

              ©

              Comment

              • All Thumbs
                Established Member
                • Oct 2009
                • 322
                • Penn Hills, PA
                • BT3K/Saw-Stop

                #22
                Originally posted by JR
                No evidence has been presented to anyone, so it can't be "overwhelming".
                I don't think Armstrong would agree with you. If Armstrong didn't think the evidence was enough to turn his remaining supporters against him, he'd still be fighting this.

                We have two witnesses (Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton) and we're told eight more that will corroborate. That is eight more from Armstrong's own team!

                It seems Armstrong was willing to fight the charges right up to the point where all would be revealed. The last thing the guy wants is ten (TEN) teammates to get up on a stand and tell the same story about how he doped. You can explain-away one or two. Maybe even three or four. But how are you going to explain-away ten?

                And BTW, for all those that keep saying he passed 500 tests. Well, the tests during that time were substantially easier to fool than they are today. And the '99 tests that showed synthetic EPO in Armstrong samples were dismissed by Armstrong as having been tampered with by the lab. And the lab didn't even know which sample belonged to which athlete, it was double-blind.

                Seriously, this guy has an excuse for everything. But he couldn't proceed against ten of his own teammates. He realized how that would play in the court of public opinion.

                This is an interesting article:
                http://nyvelocity.com/content/interv...chael-ashenden

                The most important point, IMHO, is how it reveals that maybe less than 8% of the samples indicated doping. So perhaps as many as 94% of the field wasn't doping. So for those that think all professionals dope, and if you want to be a professional, you will have to dope, that doesn't seem to be the case.
                Last edited by All Thumbs; 08-24-2012, 04:56 PM.

                Comment

                • Pappy
                  The Full Monte
                  • Dec 2002
                  • 10481
                  • San Marcos, TX, USA.
                  • BT3000 (x2)

                  #23
                  Armstrong is one of, if not, the most tested athletes in history.

                  Of note is that most of the witnesses were offered immunity from investigation for their testimony. That alone creates doubt if the testimony is true or saying what the agency wants for self preservation.

                  I am one who agrees that this is a witch hunt.
                  Don, aka Pappy,

                  Wise men talk because they have something to say,
                  Fools because they have to say something.
                  Plato

                  Comment

                  • JR
                    The Full Monte
                    • Feb 2004
                    • 5636
                    • Eugene, OR
                    • BT3000

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Black wallnut
                    And the USOC gets it funding from where?
                    I dunno. To the Interwebs, Johnny!


                    From the USOC 2011 Annual report:

                    Support and revenue (000)
                    Contributions $ 31,185
                    Less direct donor benefits (4,804) - - (4,804)
                    Net contribution income 26,381
                    Broadcast rights and related interest income (109) - - (109)
                    USOC marks rights income 75,419 - - 75,419
                    Licensing royalty income 2,633
                    Investment income (4,040)
                    Other 17,351
                    Net assets released from restrictions 2,078
                    Total support and revenue 119,713


                    "Contributions" are donations made from the general public. I don't know what goes into the "Other" category.

                    JR
                    JR

                    Comment

                    • woodinville guy
                      Established Member
                      • Sep 2003
                      • 188
                      • Cedar Park, TX

                      #25
                      Well, yours truely is riding 100 miles and running a marathon in the Livestrong challenge and marathon. The work that he has done and helped my friends family while he was fighting brain cancer is commendable. It gave them hope and something to focus on. He passed away on Good Friday.

                      I doubt anyone in the agency did anything near what Lance has done for cancer victims.

                      Let me know if you are interested in donating to Livestrong to honor him and give the finger to the USADA witch hunt.
                      - Dave

                      Comment

                      • JR
                        The Full Monte
                        • Feb 2004
                        • 5636
                        • Eugene, OR
                        • BT3000

                        #26
                        I would think that the most ****ing evidence in USADA hands pertains to the "conspiracy" to acquire aind distribute PEDs. Supposedly the Feds had compiled quite a bit of information in this regard, although clearly not enough to make a case in criminal court. USADA seemed to think they could prevail in an arbitration environment.

                        It's just as much against the rules to provide athletes with PEDs as it is to use them.

                        There are quite a few comments to the effect that Arrmstrong was tested X times, and never failed a test. The unfortunate truth is that you can use drugs and not get caught. This is particularly true with EPO, which looks like regular red blood cells to the testers. So they have to do these inferential tests that get into a very murky area. It has been reported that Amgen, the leading manufacturer of EPO drugs, has put genetic markers in their latest drugs to facilitate catching cheats.

                        JR
                        JR

                        Comment

                        • radhak
                          Veteran Member
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 3061
                          • Miramar, FL
                          • Right Tilt 3HP Unisaw

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Black wallnut
                          Yes, Surprisingly the Federal Judge that dismissed Lance's last court challenge, sadly I can not find the quote due to Fox sports rewrite of the story that had the quote.

                          Federal judge dismisses... has the original quotes :

                          Sparks found “there are troubling aspects of this case, not least of which is USADA’ s apparent single-minded determination to force Armstrong to arbitrate the charges against him, in direct conflict with UCI’s equally evident desire not to proceed against him.”

                          and

                          As mystifying as USADA’s election to proceed at this date and in this manner may be, ...

                          This must be USADA's search for its 15 minutes of fame; somehow I find this in close parallel to the McCarthy witch-hunt 50 years ago : ignore proof and go by hearsay.

                          I hear so many say its easy to beat drug tests. Then why have them? Just to catch the pathetic idiots from poorer countries that can't afford the 'better methods'?
                          Drug tests are designed and administered by the very same authorities that deny their effectiveness later on, who want to go on an alternate route to indict a sportsperson. Which tells me that USADA needs to be replaced by something more effective and - maybe - more professional?
                          It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
                          - Aristotle

                          Comment

                          • jseklund
                            Established Member
                            • Aug 2006
                            • 428

                            #28
                            As someone who used to own a sports nutrition company and dealt a little with steroids/athletes, I have a different view on sports. In 1998-2002, while in college, I used to tell people that very close to EVERY professional athlete used steroids. They'd point to baseball and basketball players and say, "They're not big". I'd tell them that doesn't matter - they use.

                            The problem is that VERY FEW people have the ability to recover from constant training at such a high level. Maybe there are a few people in professional sports, but PEDs are the rule, not the exception.

                            No one believed me until Canseco came out...now it's all history.

                            A lot of the people who use PEDs don't get caught because the testing methods are often known, and the people designing the drugs, like Patrick Arnold in BALCO, are pretty much chemical geniuses who are constantly coming up with new ideas to bypass tests.

                            All this in light, it's not right that Armstrong or any other athlete is taking the fall for steroids. I get that he is taking a fall for breaking rules and can agree with that, but how can you have a rule that goes against the sport. That's like saying tennis players who use their arms are cheating.

                            Part of this is because people have such a negative/naive vew of PEDs. There are problems, but the average person does much worse things to their body than PEDs would cause in some instances - overeating, drinking, smoking are all higher on my list of dangers than an athlete with PEDs.

                            Just my .02.
                            F#$@ no good piece of S#$% piece of #$@#% #@$#% #$@#$ wood! Dang. - Me woodworking

                            Comment

                            • JR
                              The Full Monte
                              • Feb 2004
                              • 5636
                              • Eugene, OR
                              • BT3000

                              #29
                              Originally posted by jseklund
                              Part of this is because people have such a negative/naive vew of PEDs. There are problems, but the average person does much worse things to their body than PEDs would cause in some instances - overeating, drinking, smoking are all higher on my list of dangers than an athlete with PEDs.
                              Tell that to Tom Simpson's widow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...=5tGJsxGFhxg#!
                              JR

                              Comment

                              • Tom Slick
                                Veteran Member
                                • May 2005
                                • 2913
                                • Paso Robles, Calif, USA.
                                • sears BT3 clone

                                #30
                                I'd like to know why our government feels it's important to punish entertainers (sports are entertainment) for drug use. Let the sports' governing bodies, who get their money from consumers' discretionary spending, deal with it, don't waste my compulsory tax money! I really could care less who is using what. It reminds me of McCarthyism. Drag them in, run them through the mud, drag them through the mud again, in the end accomplishing nothing.
                                Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. - Thomas Edison

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