Question: 6 point vs 12 point Sockets

[All Thumbs]

So, I repeat myself, that as a gift, I would give both.

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You'd make a great Secret Santa.

[woodturner]

The error in this statement is probably because of the way that the "disproven" was done - in some kind of controlled climate in which each test was done exactly the same under the same conditions. If you keep doing the same thing over and over again exactly the same you will get the same results again, over and over again.

That is the goal of "scientific" testing - to develop a test that will yield consistent and repeatable results, regardless of who does the test. To achieve this goal, we do carefully control the conditions of the experiment.

However, I know that I have had more heads rounded with 12 points than with 6 points.

I wonder if you had repeated the same "test" with the 12 point socket if the results would have differed? That's the challenge - in the "real world", we really can't test the two socket types on the same corroded fastener - so whichever one we grab first tends to be the one that works. If we start with one, and then try the other, we don't know if the first one loosened the bolt some, allowing the second socket to finish the job, or whether it was really the second socket that did all the work.

In scientific testing, we control the experiment to eliminate that variable - but in the "real world", it's often difficult to do this and thus difficult to reach objective conclusions.

A scientist worth his salt would try to find out why one group of people (non-scientists) consistently have similar results that disprove the consistency of the scientific study.

If a scientist were interested in that result, they probably would investigate that. However, in various discussions on automotive, machine tool, and woodworking forums, I've seen people claim contradictory positions - 12 pt is better or 6 pt is better - enough times to think that there is no general consensus, or at least significant numbers of people dissent.

So, my question to you is: Why do people out in the real world of everyday living get different result from your scientific experiment/study. Are you saying that we are "stretching the truth," as it relates to our experiences? Are you saying that we are exaggerating our experiences and favoring one side over another? What can you say about the fact that quite a few of us experience one thing that is contrary to the "scientific" study? Is it possible that the study is not an absolute for all situations and conditions that we, as users out in the field, are experiencing something that is NOT being taken into account for those scientific tests?

Great question. I think there are multiple issues:
1. As noted above, the real-world experiments are not repeatable and we really can't conduct an exhaustive test, so the results can appear to be misleading.
2. We tend to do what works for us. So, if we had a good experience with a 6 pt socket and a stuck bolt, we tend to repeat that experience.
3. The scientific experiment does test a specific set of conditions, and real-world conditions may differ widely from the specific set of conditions. As a result, even if the real-world test could be repeated, the results might be different.
4. I don't think people are exaggerating or distorting the reports of their experience. However, when I am trying to change that %$*)@&* back rear drivers side spark plug on my Ranger, I'm focused on getting the job done, not scientific testing. If I have a good experience with a particular method, I'll keep doing that, regardless if I hear about a "better" method or someone points out to me that "that bumblebee can't fly" - because my method worked for me. I assume most of us are like that, we use the tools that have worked for us in the past, and sometimes infer conclusions that may not be testable or repeatable - and that is OK, at least to me. At the end of the day, it's what I got done, not how I did it, that matters (speaking strictly of tool usage here, and assuming ethical, honest, legal, appropriate behavior, etc.).

[woodturner]

It would seem that with a six point socket, there isn't the room for the bolt to "swedge" itself into the next landing as there is with the 12 point. There is just solid wall, so if the corner of the bolt should slip, its hitting sidewall. I wonder if this would explain the purported difference in rounding bolts over. My 2 bits.

I assume this is the question referenced by your later post.

As another poster noted (with drawings!! ) the bolt head would have to be significantly damaged to allow the "swedging". Once enough bolt head material is removed or displaced to allow rotation with the 12 pt socket, the 6 pt socket may still be able to make contact - as the other poster noted, removal of more material is required to allow the 6 pt to rotate.

Another factor is that 12 pt sockets typically, but not always, have thinner walls than 6 pt. 12 pt impact sockets are an exception - they have to have "beefier" walls to stand up to the impact. As a result of the thinner walls on "hand" 12 pt sockets, the 12 pt socket walls can flex a bit and that can allow rotation on a corroded bolt head.

[woodturner]

A properly tightened Crescent wrench and a properly fitting open end wrench do as much gripping on the flat side as it does on the corners.

The open end wrench has the same clearance issues as a socket, the adjustable "crescent" wrench allows the clearance between the tool and bolt head to be reduced to nearly zero. As a result, the crescent wrench can apply force to a larger contact area and is less likely to round the bolt head, assuming a good quality crescent wrench that is adjusted to be as tight as possible on the bolt head.

[woodturner]

corroded fastener removal

Another, perhaps better, option for removing corroded and damaged fastener is bolt removal tools.

I have used the Craftsman BoltOut tools with good results, and they are currently on sale online (free in-store pickup) for $8.49
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...00100383&aff=Y
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...00100383&aff=Y

The screw removers are also on sale
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...00100383&aff=Y

For under $25 for all three, it is well worth it in my opinion.

[gsmittle]

You guys brought up many points that I would never have thought of. Thanks to all who have responded; now, I can make an informed decision.
That's why I love this site.

Would that be 6 points or 12? Sorry, couldn't resist!

As for the star on the tree, everybody knows 8 or 32 points are the best…

g.

[Stytooner]

Will a 32 point star roll up a hill better than an 8 point star?

[Tom Slick]

Flank drive! 12pt gripping like a 6pt.


Get him this set of wrenches. I know pappy would approve

[chopnhack]

Sexy wenches..... I mean wrenches, :P

P.S. - one of the most enjoyable threads in a long time! Quality of opinions and stated reasoning, keep up the great work everybody :-)

[Tom Slick]

I've enjoyed this thread quite a bit also. We have a great group of folks here but rarely do we get riled up and have a good, passionate argument.

[phrog]

Would that be 6 points or 12? Sorry, couldn't resist!


g.

In the spirit of compromise, I've decided to split the difference and buy a 9-point set.