Question: 6 point vs 12 point Sockets

[Black wallnut]

In sockets I prefer 6 point unless I am working on Eaton truck components or Parker hydraulic motors, both of those have 12 point fasteners.

Snap-on sockets are designed to grip the fasteners away from the corners, better design, also much higher cost. In my years wrenching I have found that if you use good quality tools and the correct tools in the correct way you will not round off fasteners.

[wardprobst]

I like the sets that offer both but the OP may not have the budget for that.
DP

[JimD]

I think the OP got his info and I should probably skip commenting but I won't. I think this has also already been said in a little different words but I usually buy 6 point sockets because I am buying based upon price. I like to keep a set of 1/4 and 3/8 sockets in both cars, for instance, and used harbor freight as the source for the latest set. If I bought from snap-on I would trust a 12 point. But from Harbor Freight (or Sears), I am more comfortable with 6 point. I have some cheap 12 point sockets that have been damaged a bit from use. The steel is evidently not so good.

My rule is that if you buy really good tools, 12 point will probably work well. If you buy cheap tools, 6 point are safer.

I checked the snap on catalog and they sell both. They have a few more in 6 point, however. Might mean something, might not.

Jim

[cabinetman]

And the ones that say this are telling it like it is.
It's not an urban legend when it is true. I have many years of using tools and this has been my experience. Can they round off a head? Yes. Do they round off heads as often as 12 points? No. Not in my experience. Now the testing would have to have been an all encompassing test with many different grades and styles of tools and hardware under both brand new and pristine conditions as well as typical field conditions in many different industries. I think such an extensive real world test might be more of an Urban Legend.

+1. I agree. I use both 6pt and 12pt depending on the application. For as often as some bolts are used the points don't get the wear. For a gift, I would get both 6pt and 12pt. The recipient can't complain about that.

.

[chopnhack]

It would seem that with a six point socket, there isn't the room for the bolt to "swedge" itself into the next landing as there is with the 12 point. There is just solid wall, so if the corner of the bolt should slip, its hitting sidewall. I wonder if this would explain the purported difference in rounding bolts over. My 2 bits.

[woodturner]

Again, I'll call hooey on your testing. It was flawed.

I would invite you to replicate the testing - you will get the same results, the facts are the facts.

I was relating my experience

I ackowledge that you related your experience. While what you experienced is fact, your conclusions and inferences are opinion.

I highly doubt you or anyone else has undertaken such an extensive test.

OK, but that is what scientists and engineers do and have done.

If you have low quality tools and fasteners, 6 points are less prone to rounding the corners.

It essentially makes no difference. Comparing a 6 point and a 12 point socket of the same quality will make no difference in contact area or torque application.

A worn 12 point is more likely to round off heads, but both can when worn.

I won't question your opinions, just again pointing out the conclusion is not accurate.

Now with your gravity pet test, gravity isn't all powerful. ... If you know a hill where stuff is rolling up it, then something else is at work that is stronger than gravity in that area.

Gavity is considered a "weak" force. The model we use for gravity assumes gravity is universal and constant on the earth, but that is not strictly true. On the hill in question, there are no other forces at work, it's due to an anomoly in the gravitational field. In other words, in this particular case, gravity is pulling up rather than down.

[woodturner]

It's really straightforward, but for some reason folks insist on using 12 point sockets on 6 point bolts.

Probably because it is the intended application. 12 point sockets are intended for 4, 6, and 12 point fasteners.

The only way to increase the torque applied to the fastener in to increase the number of points, since the torque is applied only at the points. That's one reason why high torque applications often use 12 or 16 point fasteners.

[cabinetman]

The only way to increase the torque applied to the fastener in to increase the number of points, since the torque is applied only at the points. That's one reason why high torque applications often use 12 or 16 point fasteners.

You may not have used them yet, but the sockets that take high torque...like impact sockets are 6pt...at least all of the ones I've used and bought.

.

[Stytooner]

I can see that you will not recant the Urban Legend statement and that is okay.
You can still think you are correct.
I have no need to redo any tests. I related my experiences. Since that was the results of what really happened, that has to be fact. My perception of that result is no different than a lab techs perception. It's your trust in my relating these experiences correctly that is in question. I'm okay with that.
My experiences aren't documented anywhere. I won't ask you to present any test results either. I trust you may have read that in some journal.
I just pointed out that such testing has to have been incomplete and therefore flawed to the point where the test results could not be used as a blanket statement. Just as there are gaps in your gravity field, there are gaps in these test results. A ball normally rolls down hill. In some instances, a 6 point will not mar bolt heads like a 12 point might.

[woodturner]

I have no need to redo any tests. I related my experiences.

That sounds a lot like "my mind is made up and the facts won't change that". If you want to "agree to disagree", that's fine.

It's human nature to draw conclusions from our experience, but often those conclusions aren't accurate. We all do it, it is inherent in the way the human brain works.

I do think it would be interesting for you to try the testing, and I'm interested in how you would reconcile the test results to your experience. The test is quite simple, anyone could do it.

Here is the test:
1. Drill and tap a 1" deep 6-32 hole in a steel block.
2. Hand install a 6-32 grade two hex head bolt in the hole.
3. Using a beam type torque wrench and a 6 point socket, apply torque to the bolt head until the bolt shears, and note the torque at which the bolt shears.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 with a 12 point socket of the same brand, type, and quality. (you will find that both bolts shear at the same torque).
5. Grind off one half of each flat on two bolts.
6. Repeat steps 2 through 4 with the two ground bolts ( you will find that both bolts stil shear at the same torque).
7. Repeat steps 5 and 6 until the torque changes or a difference is noted between the torque on the 6 point and 12 point sockets (you will find that the torque does not change until the bolt is ground to a sliver, at which point the sliver can no longer resist the torque and will bend).

A ball normally rolls down hill.

In your opinion - my point was that gravity does not cause balls to roll downhill everywhere on the earth. In other words, the opinion you formed based on your experience does not apply everywhere on the earth.

[woodturner]

the sockets that take high torque...like impact sockets are 6pt

Impact sockets are commonly available in both 6 point and 12 point. As an example:
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item....2&group_ID=407
I agree that lower end impact sockets are typically 6 point - the additional metal in a 6 point socket allows less expensive metal to be used and reduces product cost.

High torque sockets have more points, typically 12 or 18. Impact sockets are not available for high torque applications - 1000 ft-lbs is a practical limit for an impact socket.

Impact sockets are design to resist impulse forces (i.e. "impacts") rather than high torque. The hammering action of an impact wrench will tend to shatter sockets designed for higher torque - we want increased hardness for higher torque applications, but the hardness makes the metal brittle. For impact sockets, we want greater ductility - the ability to bend without breaking - to absorb the impact force without damage.

[cabinetman]

Impact sockets are commonly available in both 6 point and 12 point. As an example:
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item....2&group_ID=407
I agree that lower end impact sockets are typically 6 point - the additional metal in a 6 point socket allows less expensive metal to be used and reduces product cost.

From the site that you posted a link, you had to search to find one of the very few out of many impact sockets that are 12pt. And it being a swivel besides, which says that it's not designed for high torque. Most all Snap On, which are high end impact sockets, are 6pt, not 12pt, and not low end because of being 6pt.

.

[Stytooner]

That sounds a lot like "my mind is made up and the facts won't change that". If you want to "agree to disagree", that's fine.

It's human nature to draw conclusions from our experience, but often those conclusions aren't accurate. We all do it, it is inherent in the way the human brain works.

I do think it would be interesting for you to try the testing, and I'm interested in how you would reconcile the test results to your experience. The test is quite simple, anyone could do it.

Here is the test:
1. Drill and tap a 1" deep 6-32 hole in a steel block.
2. Hand install a 6-32 grade two hex head bolt in the hole.
3. Using a beam type torque wrench and a 6 point socket, apply torque to the bolt head until the bolt shears, and note the torque at which the bolt shears.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 with a 12 point socket of the same brand, type, and quality. (you will find that both bolts shear at the same torque).
5. Grind off one half of each flat on two bolts.
6. Repeat steps 2 through 4 with the two ground bolts ( you will find that both bolts stil shear at the same torque).
7. Repeat steps 5 and 6 until the torque changes or a difference is noted between the torque on the 6 point and 12 point sockets (you will find that the torque does not change until the bolt is ground to a sliver, at which point the sliver can no longer resist the torque and will bend).



In your opinion - my point was that gravity does not cause balls to roll downhill everywhere on the earth. In other words, the opinion you formed based on your experience does not apply everywhere on the earth.

Nope. That is not what I said or meant. I had it and seen it happen often enough to know for a fact that it is not an Urban legend.

Why is my experiences witnessed with my own eyes and felt through bleeding knuckles myth and your statements of knowing about tests that were probably written by a manicured engineer 50 years ago, fact? That is pretty arrogant.

I recommend things all the time based on my experiences. Are you saying that I should not recommend anything because I have a flawed human brain and any experiences or conclusions are inaccurate because of that? That is pretty condescending.

I personally don't mind but I have noticed that you treat other Members with the same tone. I suggest that you do a little proof reading before hitting the post button. You might get much more favorable discussions.

The test you suggest isn't the correct test for what we have been discussing.
That would be for bolt or screw shear strength. Not totally relevant here.

My opinion is that if there is a hill near you where a ball will roll up hill, then that is an exception to the rule. We don't just kill the laws of gravity because there may be an exception. What we do is say most of the time or usually or can, not will or won't or can't.

That last sentence is where you went wrong to begin with.

[Cochese]

I've sheared more bolt heads with a 12pt than a 6pt.

That's the only fact I care about.

[woodturner]

The test you suggest isn't the correct test for what we have been discussing.
That would be for bolt or screw shear strength.

Engineers use shear strength in a test like this for two reasons:
1. It is readily measurable and observable without requiring a lot of equipment.
2. It is a "go no-go" test for fastener head deformation.

Put another way, it's a good model for fastener head damage - if we can shear the head, we know that the fastener head would not have been rounded.

We often can't readily directly measure what we want, so we substitute other measurements from which we can determine the information we want. That's why this test was developed.