MilDoc again

[MilDoc]

Nope. No more responses.

Discussing this subject is like trying to discuss religion or politics.

People will believe what they want, what they hear, and in most cases are in no real position to evaluate anything. "Science" education in this country is in general so abysmal it's sad.

Choose to vaccinate or not. Your choice.

[drumpriest]

The rate is higher, I think denying that is sticking your head in the sand, the cause is not yet known. There have been a lot of environmental changes since the 80s. Huge spike in cell phone usage, for instance, as well as wireless broadband, a lot has changed. We continue to find things are not as good as we thought. Try looking into poly foam matress off-gassing, for instance.

I think we can probably formulate better vac's, and we should. I agree with Paul in that I don't think we should stop vaccinating our kids, of course I'm not sure that my son will get the chicken pox vaccine, as it causes the disease in 20-25% of cases, and is somewhat unnecessary. The number of vaccinations has increased hugely, and beyond autism there can be other side effects.

Some of these are for convenience in insurance, for instance the vitamin k shot at birth, which is a huge overdose and is linked to an increased risk of childhood leukemia. But no hospital wants to law suit of a kid bleeding out, so every kid gets it. Same with the first hepatitis vaccine being given the moment the kid is out, the timing is to cover the butt of the hospital.

I agree with Paul about the average science education, but boy, it's pretty typical for doctors to believe that the rest of us are apes unable to stop throwing our own feces. We have yet to solve all chemical reactions happening within a human. Oh yeah, is autism a disease yet?? nope, still not covered by insurance....hmm...

[OpaDC]

Nope. No more responses.

Discussing this subject is like trying to discuss religion or politics.

People will believe what they want, what they hear, and in most cases are in no real position to evaluate anything. "Science" education in this country is in general so abysmal it's sad.

Choose to vaccinate or not. Your choice.

You should have stopped after your original post to Ed's first post.

[Uncle Cracker]

People will believe what they want, what they hear, and in most cases are in no real position to evaluate anything.

Raise an autistic child... Then try to make this statement again. No amount of formal education can adequately prepare you for this. At 1 in 167, there are a lot of people in position to "evaluate". I will not apologize for having suspicions until there is an answer. What is needed is more people with passion, and less with clinical detachment.

[MilDoc]

The rate is higher...

I didn't say it wasn't But in the 1970's and 80'a a lot of kids NOW labeled as "autistic" were labeled simply mentally retarded, or static encephalopathy, or minimal brain dysfunction, or some other garbage can diagnosis. IF they had all been called "autistic," the rate in the past would have been much higher.

I'm not sure that my son will get the chicken pox vaccine, as it causes the disease in 20-25% of cases, and is somewhat unnecessary....

First, the incidence of a chickenpox-like rash after vaccination is 3.8% (not 25%) and consists of fewer than 10 lesions, rather than hundreds from the disease.

Second, I was not a proponent of varivax either, at first. But then we started seeing kids get the "flesh eating bacteria" along with chickenpox, and losing limbs, and life. THEN I became a believer. NOW we also face MRSA, and I have seen unvaccinated kids get chickenpox + MRSA - it isn't pretty.

vitamin k shot at birth, which is a huge overdose and is linked to an increased risk of childhood leukemia.

Old news, and disproven by studies on over 1.4 million children. The original studies, again, had so many methodological flaws they should never have been published. There are lies, ****ed lies, and statistics.

I agree with Paul about the average science education, but boy, it's pretty typical for doctors to believe that the rest of us are apes unable to stop throwing our own feces.

Sorry you took it that way. Now, what exactly is your training in epidemiology, biomedical statistical analysis, virology, infectious disease process, public health, and etc? No offense, but that's what it takes to read any "scientific" article and evaluate it. Relying on the "popular press science writers" (generally journalists with no specific education in these matters either) is what most people do. I used to love to teach residents, interns, and medical students just how to read an article in a medical (or other) journal. They were usually amazed to see just how much gets published that is nonsense, bad science, bad investigational technique, etc.

There have been a lot of environmental changes since the 80s.

On this we agree. A subject I have been concerned about for 30 years.

CDC finds over 250 man-made chemicals circulating in the average adult's blood. Including pregnant women.

They also found large numbers of the same chemicals in newborn blood samples.

But no one is worried about that. Instead they worry about nanograms of methyl (not ethyl) mercury in vaccines.

Now, tell me, just how do we really really research effects of vaccines on an uncontaminated sample of kids? Kids with no other chemicals in their blood?

There is no way, other than sophisticated epidemiological surveys, all of which show no connection.

[jonmulzer]

The rate is higher, I think denying that is sticking your head in the sand, the cause is not yet known.

Exactly. Fifteen years ago I had not heard of autism, and only very occasionally. Ten years ago I finally came to understand about it as I started dating a girl who nannied an autistic child. Now I find them everywhere. It may not be an epidemic in the strictest sense of the word, but to my perception it seems that way. I am only a sample of one though and I admit that matters to no one but myself.

...boy, it's pretty typical for doctors to believe that the rest of us are apes unable to stop throwing our own feces. We have yet to solve all chemical reactions happening within a human. Oh yeah, is autism a disease yet?? nope, still not covered by insurance....hmm...

Agreed again. The insurance situation in this country is in an abysmal state, as is health care in general. Everytime I purchase any sort of insurance I just remember to myself that the company has one purpose and that is to extract as much money as possible while giving the least amount back. The scandals that surround health insurance are absolutely reprehensible and many doctors have a problem with hubris.

PS: The hubris comment is not directed towards anyone on this board, it was meant towards doctors I have had personal dealings with in the past.

[MilDoc]

Fifteen years ago I had not heard of autism, and only very occasionally.

15 years ago? 1993? I've been seeing, and evaluating autistic and other developmentally delayed kids since 1974, that's 34 years. I spent time at a Child Development Center in the 70s just so I could learn more. The criteria we used for "autism" back then was very, very, very restrictive. Now, it is very, very, very expansive. That alone accounts for a lot of the "increase," as anyone with years of experience in the appropriate medical disciplines can tell you.

The insurance situation in this country is in an abysmal state, as is health care in general. Everytime I purchase any sort of insurance I just remember to myself that the company has one purpose and that is to extract as much money as possible while giving the least amount back. The scandals that surround health insurance are absolutely reprehensible...

Yep. I agree. But Americans don't want "socialized medicine," even though most have no real idea what that means either. Only ONE country in this world has a truly "socialized" system - England. Others have "single payer" systems that are not by their very function "socialist." And they get better health care at about half of what this country pays per capita. I belong to a very large group of docs and others who have advocated a single-payer system for decades.

...and many doctors have a problem with hubris.

Agreed. I've known far too many docs that act like and think they are God. My take? I thank God for allowing my assistance, as I know I don't "cure" anyone. I simply help the body, when it gets overwhelmed, do what it can to heal. That's all.

[MilDoc]

Raise an autistic child... Then try to make this statement again. No amount of formal education can adequately prepare you for this. At 1 in 167, there are a lot of people in position to "evaluate". I will not apologize for having suspicions until there is an answer. What is needed is more people with passion, and less with clinical detachment.

Ah, like Ms. McCarthy's statement that "anecdotal evidence IS scientific evidence."

Despite your belief, people with an autistic child are not in a position to evaluate true epidemiological scientific evidence. They are in a position to believe anything that "explains" what happened, no matter what. And most such "explanations" are far simpler to understand than how to evaluate a true, good, study. And "anecdotal" evidence is NOT evidence. It is passion, belief systems, and nothing else.

If a child can be suspected (and later proven) to be autistic, before he receives any vaccines, just what does that say? If autism rates are the same in Amish populations that never vaccinate their kids, just what does that say? If autism rates rise despite removing mercury, or not giving MMR, etc., just what does that say?

Ah, but those little tidbits never make the evening news, or the papers.

And, BTW, I have passion for theses kids, I fight to get the treatments they need and might benefit from. Over and over and over. But I will never give in to pseudo-scientific garbage.

[djkert]

I didn't say it wasn't But in the 1970's and 80'a a lot of kids NOW labeled as "autistic" were labeled simply mentally retarded, or static encephalopathy, or minimal brain dysfunction, or some other garbage can diagnosis. IF they had all been called "autistic," the rate in the past would have been much higher.

And where are all these autistic kids today. The difference between an autistic kid and a MR is pretty obvious. If you want to make the argument that the high functioning kids weren't being diagnosed like they are today that is fine. But I'm not sure what point you are trying to make by denying the autism rates are up. I think its pretty obvious to everyone that knows what an autistic child is.

But no one is worried about that. Instead they worry about nanograms of methyl (not ethyl) mercury in vaccines.

Umm, you are off by quite a large factor here. I would think a pediatrician would know these numbers a little better.

As far as vaccines go in infants after they are home from the hospital ( 2 week check up and beyond )
an infant six months old who got all vaccine doses on schedule would receive 75 micrograms of mercury from three doses of DTaP, 75 micrograms from three doses of Hib, and 37.5 micrograms from three doses of hepatitis B vaccine - a total of 187.5 micrograms of mercury. umm. how does that compare to a few nanograms???

An 8 pound baby injected with the hepatitis B vaccine at birth was exposed to 35 times the EPA daily safety level for mercury, (calculated by bodyweight) while a 4 pound infant was slammed with 70 times the EPA level. Now, in 2000 there was about 30 vaccinations on the recommended schedule. I think that is enough to be concerned about. Especially since its being injected directly into the blood.

Now, tell me, just how do we really really research effects of vaccines on an uncontaminated sample of kids? Kids with no other chemicals in their blood?

.

Why don't we just do a study of unvaccinated vs vaccinated children in the country? Take a look at the autism rates in the amish community.

[djkert]

Ah, like Ms. McCarthy's statement that "anecdotal evidence IS scientific evidence."

Despite your belief, people with an autistic child are not in a position to evaluate true epidemiological scientific evidence.

And pediatricians are?

And most such "explanations" are far simpler to understand than how to evaluate a true, good, study.

Funny, earlier in the thread I asked you to point me to a "true, good, study" and you refused. Still waiting...

And "anecdotal" evidence is NOT evidence.

No, its not. But isn't that what all the "true, good, studies" that say there is no casual relationship are based on?

If a child can be suspected (and later proven) to be autistic, before he receives any vaccines, just what does that say?

It says he has bad genes, and he didn't need an environmental trigger to push him over the edge. But just about all scientists agree, genetics don't change this fast. So there must be something else...

If autism rates are the same in Amish populations that never vaccinate their kids, just what does that say? If autism rates rise despite removing mercury, or not giving MMR, etc., just what does that say?
Ah, but those little tidbits never make the evening news, or the papers.

You talk like these actually happened. Can you please provide a link to the amish autism rates?

[drumpriest]

MilDoc, again, I have not yet seen sufficient evidence to show vaccination is truly the cause of the rise in autism. I think the cause is as of yet unknown. That certainly doesn't mean that we should not improve how we handle vaccinations.

Secondly, "before he receives any vaccines" is impossible if you follow the pediatrician's schedule, as kids get their first vaccine within 30 minutes of coming out of the mother. Now if you are saying that there is an in vitro test for it, that's news to me, or if it can be diagnosed within those first 30 minutes, I think you would have a compelling argument that SOME are certainly not caused by vaccinations.

logical example...

An enemy of mine is shot, I'm arrested. He was shot with a gun just like mine, but before I owned my gun. So I'm in the clear, regardless of the fact that I may have shot 50 other people with that gun. So that one case can be considered anecdotal.

Also, the very start of your argument here, while funny as can be, is a logical fallacy called attacking the accuser. Just because she may not be the smartest cookie, doesn't mean that she isn't right.

I will end this post by reaffirming that I see no scientific evidence that inductively proves to a great enough percentage to me that vaccines are the cause of autism, at least not alone. If I drink a can of battery acid tonight, it may not give me cancer, but I'm still pretty sure it's not a great idea. We can and should improve on the formulations of vaccines.

[Warren]

Paul,

You are truely a breath of fresh air. Unfortunately, a breath is not sufficient to blow away clouds of ignorance. Also, many people believe, even today, what they see and hear in the media.

Still, I hope you continue to fight the good fight as people like you will be the ones to find the answers. You are passionate and objective, a hard combination to find.

[MilDoc]

Secondly, "before he receives any vaccines" is impossible if you follow the pediatrician's schedule, as kids get their first vaccine within 30 minutes of coming out of the mother.

One and only absolute last response.

There was a period of several years where the HepB vaccine at birth was stopped. Some hospitals did not restart even after thimerosol was removed form all vaccines (except influenza). These studies have been going on since even before the suspension of the vaccine, during the suspension, and after. There was no change in rates of suspected, then later proven, incidence of autism, predicted with testing at 6-8 weeks of age.

[paintandbodtman]

I have been following this thread and It's been very interesting to say the least.
I am by no means an expert at anything and probably the least knowledgeable of this subject as anyone posting here,However if I were a gambling man I would put my money on the following.
I think that down the road researchers will come to the conclusion that Autism is a systemic disease stemming from years of exposure to various chemicals by the parents and or even grandparents.People have exposed themselves to so many different chemicals in so many ways IE= in the workplace,otc drugs being abused,breathing the air in hair salons,manicure and pedicure salons,illicit recreational drugs,ect ect and the damage in finally manifesting its self in our offspring,just look at agent orange vets and the effect on their children and grandchildren for a stark comparison. Just my 2 cents worth.

Wayne

[Caddis295]

I'm thankful for the likes of MILDOC....

I have had the distinct pleasure of meeting MILDOC a few years ago, while stationed at Ft. Hood, TX. He was one of a few doctors that looked after my son that was suffering from a respiratory ailment that many could not figure out. Paul, you are a blessing to the community of Ft. Hood and I wish there were more doctors like you. I retired over a year ago, my son is healthy and growing like a weed. Thanks for your tireless devotion to the masses that swarm your office everyday!

Caddis295