Who is more at risk for injury in woodworking?

[andrew.r.w]

I cannot pick one of these based on my experience. In my opinion it is not a question of if a woodworker is inexperienced or not, but more if he/she is trained, sensible, given to good work habits, and such like that.

I would guess that there is a higher incidence of injury among new woodworkers, but long-time players are never really without risk, so over a long time you'll be exposed to risk at a decreasing level but for more time. If the question was worded like "Would you be more likely to inujure yourself in the first month or the 300th month?" I suggest the answer would be clear, especially for someone who survived the first 299 months without injury.

There's a saying in aviation: There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots. I think something like that applies here.

[JohnnyLisa]

Definitely newbie woodworkers. If I live long enough to be considered a seasoned woodworker, I'll change my answer.

[Ed62]

Thanks Ed, yours was one of the first articles I've saved into my "Saw 101" directory here. Great write-up (and handsome bench there too).

Thanks again

-Rob

The only credit I get is for posting the link. All the rest belongs to Ray. It's his writeup, and his bench (as far as I know ). Glad to hear that someone used the link.

Ed

[SARGE..g-47]

I didn't vote as I don't consider either of the two choices as a solidified answer. I have been butchering (and butchered) for just over 36 years at this point. I know about all the machines capabilities and quirks. I know how to exhibit the safest approach to operating each. I just know from experience and being taught.

A newbie may or may not know, depending on the home-work he has done or training he has recieved and other similar circumstances.

But.... but... but... he is not any more prone or possibly less prone to having an accident just using god given common sense than I am "knowing" IMO but...

Thinking because I know I can take a "short-cut" or not have to devote full concentration every moment on precisely what I am doing.. or drop my guard to the fact that I "know" that I am at the machines mercy if I do not follow safety procedure to a Tee.. or doing something I know is potentially dangerous but my previous experience will take me to "The Promised Land" just this one time.

Who is more at risk? .............
Anyone that knows and disregards the fact they know.. even for a moment!

Any one that doesn't know and doesn't make an effort to know.. and if they don't know take the common sense approach of "if it looks to be dangerous, it probably is" and doesn't react properly to that fact.

No major accidents in 36 years... could it happen at this point?

It can and probably will the moment I don't follow the safety procedures I have learned.. implemented.. and know. That is reality!

[leehljp]

There is more to it than just those two questions.

From my observations from the early 60's in shop classes and watching others, young people with a serious injury early on tend to stay away after the first serious injury. The reason for seasoned woodworkers is not just lax but partly statistical chances even with good precautions.

Wood used to be clean straight grained wood, which is a rarity nowadays. No matter how well one prepares with safety items/features, some woods today are going to pinch, warp, twist in ways that are not foreseen until that moment comes. I have gotten to the point that I almost expect a 2x4 piece to kick back. I give it my undivided attention and know that no matter what, it is going to happen. This will happen to newbies too.

THE X FACTOR - COMMON SENSE and EXPERIENCE
The main reason I voted for Newbie was the opening of woodworking to the garage hobby market and the lack of common sense in tool use. Common sense is not innate, IMO, but is acquired through innate or taught observation skills in how to do something. And also a sensible anticipation of how things act and react in a given situation. Experience may be another word for the same thing but not all people with experience will think things through like this.

All of the safety devices out on saws and tools, and the warnings are there because most people (and especially hobby people) are not around tools all the time and do not observe them in action 8 - 12 hours a day.

One of the Darwin awards went to a lawyer who was cleaning his pool with a long aluminum pole/net. He saw a palm frond caught on some electric wires and decided to pull it down. Needless to say that was his last act. His relatives sued the electric company and the pool cleaning pole maker because they did not warn.

That is Stupid, stupid, stupid. HOWEVER the world is coming to this in which people are not involved in real world things and do not have observation and deductive reasoning skills. This is a REALITY today, what I call a lack of common sense.

ANOTHER WAY TO PHRASE the question: If you were an insurance company, who would you rather insure? The newbie or the seasoned worker?
The seasoned worker will lapse at times for sure, but I would rather insure him or her than the newbie in todays world.

NEWBIES: Don't envision the end product and then go all out for it! Look at each cut, each movement. Envision two or three steps ahead and then back up and look at the current step. Ask yourself questions like "Where are my hands in relation to the blade? What would happen to my hands or the board if it suddenly caught or raised up. Which way will the router bit pull this board? Will it pull my hand into the bit? Is this the ONLY way I can make this cut? Do I have enough experience to do it like NAHM did? Because and experienced person did it and made it look easy, am I wanting to try that trick? Was it easy or was it experience that just made it look easy? Observe and ask questions. These were things taught in the real world that I grew up in. I have had my share of sliced, cut, bruised hands and legs, face and fingers. Not all were lapses but some were.

[LCHIEN]

new or old, its the careless and ignorant who will get injured.

As for liklihood of injury, are we talking about woodworking injury or any injury??? Not specified but I'll assume woodworking injury.

Also, are we talking about lifetime risk or risk in the next tool usage?

The liklihood over lifetime goes against the experienced woodworker assuming he's been at it a whole lot and is likely to continue (more opportunity). A new woodworker is likely to change hobbies or drop ww and therefore less likely to be injured in his lifetime. If we're just talking about the next instance of tool useage, then the newbie is more likely, statistically, to get injured doing it because of his inexperience.

[Tom Hintz]

I did a large survey several years ago on woodworking safety that showed in no uncerain terms that the veteran woodworker is way more prone to becoming lax and getting hurt - and knowing it! See the link below for the full report.

http://www.newwoodworker.com/safesurvy.html

[Sugarman]

I could not vote because I think they are both equally at risk and it depends on the equipment they are using.
I have been very fortunate that in my 45 + years of of using tools I have had no serious injury, just a nick here and there and lots of splinters.

[oakchas]

Hank certainly makes a good point about what would the insurance company do... And based on actuarial tables, he's probably right.

But as an experienced WW, I'd have to say I'm more likely to push the envelope of safety. And, I have the scars to prove it.

In many ways, we are all newbies... at something. I'd never spent one whole day doing repetitive cuts. After several hours of making the same piece over and over, I got complacent... That's when I routed the end of my thumb.

As a newbie, I was almost scared of the spinning blades and bits... but fear is not a good place from which to work. I honed that fear into respect early on...

But then, as you get more familiar; your tools become your "friends" and you trust them to do things maybe you shouldn't ask them to do.

[crokett]

Newbies are more likely to get hurt. You could ask the same question about driving - who is more likely to have an accident - the teenager who just started driving or the person who's been driving for 20 years? The teen is more likely to have an accident in future. The older driver is probably more likely to have had one in the past since he's had 20 years to have had an accident and the teen has only had a few months.

[radhak]

Two years ago when I had just got into woodworking I tried to cross cut a piece of 1/4" plywood on the TS with the support of neither the fence nor a miter-gauge .

It caught and threw it back with a ferocity that almost scared me back to religion! It was a small piece of thin ply, so it only scratched me slightly on my chest before proceeding as a projectile to the far end of the garage.

That was when I found religion - woodworking-wise, that is : I came upon this site and was put on the right path and technique(s). So in a manner of speaking, I was 'saved'.

Two years hence, I am still safe from any injuries, which I attribute to thinking of myself as a permanent newbie. Before every new type of cut, I take a moment to think - 'what would the BT3C-ers say about this?', and take appropriate safety measures.

So I'd say, for the question in point - an un-guided newbie stands a great risk of injury. How'd s/he know what's good? Recently a friend told me on the phone he was fully ready to cut his floor-laminates - "...got the miter-saw, clamps, gloves, safety-goggles...", when I stopped him and asked him to lose the gloves while cutting . He was surprised, but thankfully, listened. As I said, guidance is good.

But if the newbie is ready to be guided (or, is a member here ), then a bigger risk would be complacency brought about by familiarity.

[SARGE..g-47]

I did a large survey several years ago on woodworking safety that showed in no uncerain terms that the veteran woodworker is way more prone to becoming lax and getting hurt - and knowing it! See the link below for the full report.

http://www.newwoodworker.com/safesurvy.html

Excellent and well done article, Tom. Your conclusion at the end is particularly interesting.

Regards...

[oakchas]

yep,

That article pretty much sums up my feelings and my experience. And I can certainly understand why the accident "victims" almost all confessed their own stupdity... Every WW accident I've had was a DIRECT result of my own stupidity.

Doing things I knew were unsafe or at least marginally so. And, on occasion NOT bothering with extra precautions that would have skewed the result into a near miss rather than a real incident.

[Ed62]

Tom,

That was an interesting study. You did an excellent job on it. Was there any mention about people getting injured when using a TS without a blade guard, for procedures when a guard could be used?

Ed

[Tom Hintz]

Tom,

That was an interesting study. You did an excellent job on it. Was there any mention about people getting injured when using a TS without a blade guard, for procedures when a guard could be used?

Ed

Ed,

As you might expect, a large number of those responding were not using the guard that came with the machine, or any guard in most cases. The lawyers balked at providing too much info on that for some reason but I have learned to trust them as they are a big-time firm and several of them are woodworkers.
Needless to say there were far fewer injury reports from those who used the guard system. Aside from the safety benefits of the guard itself, people that use them seem to think more about making cuts safely. Of course, you have to discount those who are "certain" that the factory guards are intentionally designed to be dangerous. Just how that would benefit anyone escapes me, but there are those who are certain of it!