Statutory rape

[JR]

Next they'll try to make it where you are an adult at 18, but can vote only if you are 25 ,have a law degree and a minimum of $1million in inherited money.

i think that's more or less what the founders had in mind. I think you did have to be 25 and you had to be a property owner. And white, of course. And male.

It was equal other than those minor discrepancies.

They were less uptight about the drinking. I don't think there cars were as fast as ours.

I think they might have been somewhat more uptight about the premarital sex. I'm pretty sure a girl would have been cast into the wilderness, naked but for a scarlet A, or some such. http://www.peaceworkmagazine.org/pwork/0410/041005.htm

JR

edit: an interesting timeline for US voting rights. Note the 1971 ammendment giving 18-year-olds the right to vote in exchange for the right to send them to war.

[ragswl4]

Oh I doin't have a problem with the arbitrary age per se, but just make it consistent. When you are an adult, your an adult. period. Not an adult for some things and not one for other.

Next they'll try to make it where you are an adult at 18, but can vote only if you are 25 ,have a law degree and a minimum of $1million in inherited money.

I would agree, if you are old enough to serve your country, then you are old enough to be served a beer, vote, get married, buy a house and do everything else an adult is allowed to do and be responsible for what you do.

[Alex Franke]

I still think the arbitrary age deal is a bit silly. If there were a way to efficiently, consistently, and objectively judge competence/maturity for things like drinking, driving, enlisting, marriage, etc, then I'd be tempted to vote for doing away with the arbitrary age altogether.

...but it all depends on what the method is. Do I really want my government to tell me how mature I am? Don't think so...

At the same time, though, I don't want to risk getting locked up if I let my kids try a sip of wine with dinner when they're in their teens...

[JR]

At the same time, though, I don't want to risk getting locked up if I let my kids try a sip of wine with dinner when they're in their teens...

That is a particularly hot topic in my neck of the woods. Local municpalities are writing ordinances outlawing exactly that.

The genesis of the conflict was a woman who held a New Year's Eve party for her kids and their friends, at which alcohol was served. I forget if something bad happened (my recollection is that nothing did), but it was the actual holding of the party that got the local do-gooders up in arms.

JR

[MilDoc]

Hey, a "sip of wine" with dinner I don't mind. When my sister and I were each over 5 years Mom let us have a "highball" (a little booze and a LOT of 7-Up) on Christmas eve. Put us to sleep early.

But far too many parents are having open bars for their kid's 16th birthday, graduation, etc., encouraging drinking. That is going too far by idiot parents "who'd rather see them drink at home." Yeah, right.

Personally I'd like to see 21 the "age of majority." No voting, driving, drinking, or shooting guns for the Army until then.

[Russianwolf]

That is a particularly hot topic in my neck of the woods. Local municpalities are writing ordinances outlawing exactly that.

The genesis of the conflict was a woman who held a New Year's Eve party for her kids and their friends, at which alcohol was served. I forget if something bad happened (my recollection is that nothing did), but it was the actual holding of the party that got the local do-gooders up in arms.

JR

I made a similar deal with my daughter. When I married her mother I pulled her aside and explained that if she was going to drink, I'd rather she drink in the house, and that included her friends too. I wouldn't provide the booze, but I would provide a safe place where I could make sure none of them got hurt. I didn't care if I got in trouble with the law, if it meant keeping her alive by not having her or one of her friends trying to drive home drunk.

She used that priviledge.....once.

If I hadn't done this, she would have likely gone to a party at a friend's house with the same booze, and who knows what would have happened. Like I said earlier, they will find a way to do it wheather we like it or not. Keeping them as safe as possible is up to us.

[MilDoc]

The problem with allowing your child to "drink safely at home" - you do not know if they will limit it to home; you do not know if they will get hooked (some do, fast); you can not be certain you are not encouraging life long addiction.

Just like telling your teen not to have sex. Yeah, right, that works too.

Today I had a 14 year old girl in clinic, sent to me for abnormal liver tests. I "joked" that this could be due to alcohol. Uh huh. Turns out her mother had let her and her friends "drink at home." And only at home. Guess that made it right. Mom worked nights. Turns out the girl liked drinking, and drank while her mom was at work. Jack D, wine, beer, anything she could get (not too hard). Drank for months before her mom discovered it a month ago.

Guess why she had liver damage?

[dkerfoot]

The genesis of the conflict was a woman who held a New Year's Eve party for her kids and their friends, at which alcohol was served. I forget if something bad happened (my recollection is that nothing did), but it was the actual holding of the party that got the local do-gooders up in arms.

If it were one of my kids being served liquor, this do-gooder would be putting my foot up that woman's a**.

Besides the problem of serving alcohol to other people's kids, the people who think this is a good idea are usually problem drinkers themselves.

There is a world of research showing the younger a child is when they first start to drink, the more likely they are to become an alcoholic.

So what exactly is the upside of letting kids drink?

[MilDoc]

So what exactly is the upside of letting kids drink?

None. Alcohol is a drug. So if letting them drink at home "where they are safe" is OK, why not other drugs? Cocaine, heroin, cheese. At home, "they are safe."

[Russianwolf]

None. Alcohol is a drug. So if letting them drink at home "where they are safe" is OK, why not other drugs? Cocaine, heroin, cheese. At home, "they are safe."

So you would rather them drink outside your home, where they can then drive and get killed? Or get in the car with someone else who shouldn't be driving in order to get home? (like a very close buddy of mine did in HS, three dead and one needing major reconstructive surgery)

One way or another they are going to do what they are going to do. You can either get the news up front from them, or from the police afterwards. Don't know about you, but I'd prefer to here "we're going to drink a beer and watch a movie" rather than "Sir, your daughter was in an accident, she didn't make it. We believe she was intoxicated while driving home"

Are you saying that all drugs should be controlled? Heck Advil can cause kidney problems if you take too many of them. Make them a controlled substance. Kids get high off of canned air and model glue, both of which can kill you very quicky, and can be just as adictive. Yet they sell them to kids everyday.

Luckily I don't have to worry about this anymore. My daughter is 24 and out on her own. I'll pipe down since this can't really go anywhere.

[Kristofor]

As mentioned, in most places an 18 year old having sex with a 17 year old is not a statutory rape, but for places where it is this is a silly law.

John, born Jan 1, 1980
Jane, born Jan 2, 1980

From Jan 1, 1980, through Dec 31, 1997 John and Jane can legally have sex with one another. On Jan 1, 1998 it's statutory rape. On Jan 2, 1998 they can again have legal sex. This does sound a lot like the government, but it's not very rational.

The argument that laws need to be clear makes sense. Folks could argue that if you say ages within 2 years are okay, what about people who are 2 years and 1 day different. I guess that is a point, but there are far fewer of those cases than kids in the same grade who simply happen to have a different birthday.

Kristofor.

[JR]

If it were one of my kids being served liquor, this do-gooder would be putting my foot up that woman's a**.

I wish I could find news reports of the event in question. As I recall, the kids' parents were notified and it was all on the up and up. It was other parents outside the group who were upset.

I respectfully disagree with your comments and Paul's, though. If kids are going to drink, which they almost assuredly will, isn't it better that they learn respnsible drinking? Otherwise they are likely to be unchaperoned, teaching one another about "shooters" and "chugging". While alcohol is surely a drug, perhaps comparable to those mentioned by Paul, they are different in that they eventually are legal.

This thread, and the other one, has mostly been about why there is a magic birthday. If your kid, under your no drinking ever no-way rule, reaches the age at which he can legally get and use alcohol, he won't be educated in its proper use. That seems a recipe for trouble.

JR

[Alex Franke]

None. Alcohol is a drug. So if letting them drink at home "where they are safe" is OK, why not other drugs? Cocaine, heroin, cheese. At home, "they are safe."

I dunno -- they may all be drugs, but I think we're comparing apples and oranges here, and except for that time in the 20's our lawmakers would probably agree.

I'd argue that most kids are going want to try alcohol at some point before they're 21, and sure some of them will get hooked and end up at your clinic. But I'd argue that if it were introduced responsibly in the home, you might have a better chance at demystifying the whole idea of drinking, and teaching the kids how to avoid abuse.

For me growing up, having a drink now and then was never a big deal. So when my friends wanted to start sneaking out of the house to go get drunk (just for the sake of getting drunk), I'd usually just shake my head. It was very easy for me to resist the peer pressure I guess because it didn't feel naughty.

A friend in HS nearly died trying to get home because he was afraid of how his parents would react when they smelled a single beer on his breath. So he hopped into a car with an older (and drunker) friend -- maybe 16 or so at the time -- and his parents got a call from the emergency department. I wouldn't have hesitated to call home because I had nothing to fear by doing so.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

A few things . . .

1) While I agree with letting your kids do their own thing (to a limited degree) in the home to protect them from driving under the influence, etc I really dont think it is cool to involve others kids or throw parties where parents are not aware of what is going on. I knew a couple parents who were cool like that in HS. Drinking in the home (hide all the drug use outside for respect of the parents) was ok but the problem was that most kids had to leave and go home. That is such a huge liability to society.

2) I am the first to admit that I am very, very lucky to no be in prison today. And I had quite a few female friends who are lucky not to be in jail. Most of my girlfriends or hookups were older than me. So I dodged that bullet most of the time. Got real lucky dodging pregancy bullet and STD bullet.

3) Also was a huge fan of drugs and drinking in HS. And dodged quite a few bullets there.

All in all, I am very lucky considering the vast amount of hard core partying I did in HS. Heck my partying decreased when I went to college and joined a frat!

[dkerfoot]

This may be hard for some of you to believe, but my 22 year old son has only drank alcohol once and that was on a trip to Asia where the custom pretty much demanded it.

My 18 year old daughter has never drank, except for a few sips back in my home-brewing days when my hobby naturally made her curious - and my attitude was much closer to yours. My 12 and 13 year olds haven't drank and while there are no guarantees, I'd say they will probably choose not to.

Why is this? How can I possibly know for sure? Because I talk to them. They know that alcoholism runs in the family. They have seen the toll it has taken on people they love. They have felt what it is like to be abandoned by either their mother or father because of alcohol. I haven't ever tried to scare them away from drinking. I haven't had to, any more than you'd need to scare your kids away from eating DCon rat poison after finding the bloated carcase of the family pet who had eaten it.

I partied throughout high school, but my kids have more fun than I ever dreamed of. They are surrounded by adults who spend hours each week planning fun events for them. Adults who love them and invest themselves into their lives, showing them how valuable they are. Adults who care enough to ask them how things are really going and then really listen.

I am not a prohibitionist by any means. But I compare the lives of my own kids and their friends to the kids who hang out at my "cool" neighbors house and I see the difference between love and abuse, joy and despair, day and night.

I'd like to encourage you to consider that there might be a better option than you have ever known yourself. I know it surprised the heck out of me.