Is higher education worth it?

[LCHIEN]

if you make 5K per year more than the next guy over a 43 year career, that's another way of looking at it. But, your're right, there's lots of ways to look at it.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

As both a job seeker and a hiring supervisor, I have found from most of the salary surveys I read that a graduate masters degree is worth about $5K per year more than a bachelors degree.

If you can afford to stay on for a year or two then its well worth the time and money.

I agree with this 100%. Graduate school has for the most part weeded out the lower 75% of the class that may have been holding the top 25% back. Classes are much more challenging and fulfilling in grad school. Unless of course you go to FloridaState grad school like I did! LOL!

Also, I would point out that many employers have very good tuition reimbursement / educational benefits. When I graduated from undergrad I went to work for The Hartford. I fully took advantage of the education and tuition reimbursement program. They paid for my Masters in Risk Management and Insurance. They also paid a pretty decent sum every time I passed industry exams in advanced insurance programs. Heck when I completed my Chartered Property Casualty Underwriter program they gave me $2500 bonus and sent the wife and I to Hawaii for a week!

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Hypothetically speaking, if the base for undergraduate is $55k/year, it would take 22 years for you to make the $110k back that you forfeited when you went to graduate school. Of course, that doesn't take into account the cost of graduate school or the time value of money, either.

Not a no-brainer, would require further analysis.

IMHO there are few schools that require you to not work during masters level work. I know Wharton at U Penn will not allow you to work during MBA program or Law program. However, you will be making substantially more than an extra $5k per year.

I would venture that most folks with masters or higher are making significantly more that $5k more than an undergrad. However, I think that this is likely due to the higher motivation of a graduate level education seeker than necessarily the actual degree.

[cgallery]

if you make 5K per year more than the next guy over a 43 year career, that's another way of looking at it. But, your're right, there's lots of ways to look at it.

And my $55k/year was arbitrary. Someone with an undergrad business degree will clean-up w/ an MBA.

[vaking]

Firstly, let me ask you all a very similar question:
Is staying in high school and getting a high school diploma worth the effort?
I believe that almost everybody at this forum will answer a quick yes to this question. Some years back this question would have raised a big debate- today it's a no-brainer. What have changed? I believe - jobs that require absolutely no education vanished. The same is happening now with jobs that don't require bachelors degree. Is college degree worth it - if you are 50 years old or older - than I may be not. If you are under 30 - definitely yes if you can afford it. You are not likely to spend a life without looking for a job and having a degree gives a lot of options and flexibility. Depending what you plan to do in life a graduate degree may give you even more options and make search easier.
What exactly should you expect from college?
College is not a trade school - do not expect to come out with knowledge to become productive at a new job on a first day. Most importantly - college teaches you how to learn and how to think. It is not that important what your degree is in - I have worked under technical manager with degree in biology and he was doing fine. College graduate is expected to have a broader horizon and better general background than a person without a degree. To a potential employeer the fact you have a degree tells that at least you can be taught. Sure, there are examples of people who succeeded without a degree and people with degrees who failed. but statistics says that living without a degree is getting harder. When everyone else has a degree and you don't - it makes you less competitive.

[gwyneth]

When everyone else has a degree and you don't - it makes you less competitive.

This is somewhat related to one of the most important reasons to go to college but that nobody has mentioned.

This is the intangible corrosive effect not going has on bright people. In some cases, what this has done to their self-esteem and attitudes is more damaging to their career prospects than the actual lack of college.

There is one thing that is absolutely certain about having an undergraduate degree: it forever removes the doubt in someone's mind about what their life would have been if they'd gone to college. In other words, no matter what else having a bachelors' degree does, it takes away one excuse.

[cwsmith]

Let me tell you from my own experience.... It's almost essential!!!! Not only for getting a good job, but also for keeping one.

Depending on the job of course, a degree is extremely important, and usually the higher the better. But one should also note that a degree from a prestegeous university is generally worth more than from one of lower ranking. If you're a young father or mother, you really need to get your child on a path where learning is fun and natural, and where they'll end up being competive in the college acceptance market. If you wait until they're a Junior in highschool, it's going to be a tough challenge.

That sad part is that we live in an age when many businesses appear to put more value in your "educational history" than they do in your employment or experience history. In fact, some corporations will only except your resume' electronically, where it will be scanned and kicked-out, if it doesn't meet thier specific criteria. In other words, without a degree, you'll never get a chance for an interview, no matter how good you are at what you do.

But even twenty years ago, the lack of a degree meant a continuous challenge to your "credentials". Without a degree, one would often have to prove their worth to the eyes of a new boss or in the face of a new job.

Without boring you with the details, let me tell you that I'm a pretty good technical illustrator and writer and I've had a wealth of experience over the years, both in service and marketing support. I've also added a variety of skills and I have a reputation of being an inventive "can-do" person. With more than thirty years of service to the company I worked for, I also have a well-documented history of innovations. In addition, I've also provided freelance services for a good number of industries in the northeast. But, without a degree, I was rarely promotable and my salary was usually compromised.

But when my company was merged, the top-management discovered that I was performing without a "degree" (no secret on my part). My position was terminated and I lost my job. However, my local management kept me on for three years as they fought in my behave to rehire me. During this period, I was titled as a "consultant" and received no benefits of any kind. Unfortunately for me, they lost the fight and I was "retired" at the ripe old age of 58. (Sounds a lot better than unemployed.)

So the lack of a degree cost me my job, despite a very good record of service. Sadly, I've been out of there for five years now, and the new marketing communications team (five "degree'd" people) has yet to produce a single new brochure or product support piece. Even the company web site seems to be frozen to 2003.

Today, I'm NOT employable, at least not in my area of expertice. Without a degree, I can't even get an interview. So, I'm retired! I have to watch my pennies, but other than that, life's not all that bad anymore.

The fact is that times change and so do the people in charge. It used to be the guys on top, got there through hard work and skill. Today, companies are managed by "professional" people, and that means the decision makers all have degrees. They in turn look only for "degrees" to fill their needs. It really doesn't matter much whether or not the skills are there, as long as the job gets done. If it doesn't get done right... well, the manager is still safe, for how was he to know? After all, he hired a person with a "degree"!

Hiring a person without a degree is risky business and it requires some work, experience, and skill on the part of the management. Hiring a "degree" takes a lot less effort and really there's little or no personal risk to the hiring manager. So, it's a no brainer... literally and figuratively.

My son has his Bachelors Degree from Cornell and is currently only a year or so away from his Masters. Believe it or not, his profession is "Human Resources and Industrial Labor Relations". I think he understands my frustrations and he brings a different pespective to his profession.

Life isn't easy, but when you're stupid it can be very hard. (Something of a paraphrase from John Wayne's Sands of Iwo Jima?) So IMO, get a degree; it's supposed to be proof you're NOT stupid. While you're at it, get the best one you can, and also try to make an honest attempt to really know everything about what you're being paid to do. If you're a parent, do everything you can to ensure that your child has every possible chance to be competive in the job market. You may have had your own share of struggles and frustrations, so why would you want your kid to go through the same?

CWS

[cgallery]

At the age of approx. 14 I started playing with computers. I built them from kits (the old Heathkit stuff) and learned to program them. First in BASIC, then in C (the old Software Toolworks C compiler by Walt Bilofsky) and assembly. I've dabbled in quite a few other programming languages.

I started working for Heathkit when I was 16 and did that for a couple of years. It was a great way to pay for additional computer crap.

By the time I was 18 I was hired by a national consulting firm and paid approx. the same as my father (who did pretty well as a columnist at one of our daily newspapers).

I worked as I attended the local university. I sat-in on several of the lectures in the computer science department, but didn't really find what I was looking for. I'll go into that later.

So instead I went for a degree in economics. I enjoyed the fusion of history, math, and critical thinking. But as the coursework evolved, I discovered that the textbooks were a better source for learning than the lectures. In fact, I was probably the only one reading the texts. The professors routinely got stuff wrong. I noticed that as the work advanced, the profs wanted to commit less to the chalkboard, and they spoke from memory rather than notes. I called one of them "tangent man" because he seemed to get off track so easily.

I was becoming disillusioned. By the time I was 21 I had been attending the university for three years and had held four different jobs working for computer services firms. Each new hire came with a substantial raise. But the higher level courses in economics were being lectured by monkeys that often got key concepts wrong.

I was taking a "Mathematical Economics" course (where they try to prove econ is a science--don't get me started) when it happened. The prof. went for an alumni run and suffered a fatal heart attack an hour or two after.

The department sent a replacement, a professor I was familiar with whom I somewhat respected. He said he searched the dead professor's offices (home and school) and didn't find any notes, past exams, notes of grades, nothing. He would make up a final based upon the text and his knowledge of the area.

I did pretty well on that exam, earning a final grade of a B. I had been reading the text books all along. But wait, everyone got a B. Even the guys that handed their exams in five minutes after the start.

I couldn't take it any longer. I stopped going to classes and finally dropped out to pursue computer consulting full time.

Since 1988, I have never had a single person decide whether to use my services or not based upon whether I had a degree. In fact, all they want to know is whether I can fix their problem and how much it will cost.

Sometimes they ask "how did you learn all this," and I usually tell them the truth. Sometimes I make up a ridiculous answer ("I learned everything from reading comic books") to gauge their reaction.

These days I have become pretty lazy. I make enough money and I don't apply myself as much as I should. But finding work is no problem. In fact, I could walk into ten office buildings downtown, introduce myself, and ask if there was any work that they needed help with. I would find work in at least two of those offices. Immediate work, paying $125 an hour for at least two to three days. None of them would ask me if I was college educated. Hopefully they would check references.

I actually own the oldest computer store in Wisconsin. We started it in 1988 as a home base and have really moved into fixing stuff that is brought to us. I really hate working onsite. I could make maybe a little more money if I did, but can't stand it.

I suppose I am an exception. I've seen (and even mentored) people that want to do what I've done. But too many want to do it to make money. My secret is that I'd do it for free. I just love computers THAT much.

Last point: I reject that notion that universities teach people to think. I've run into just too many people that prove the opposite is true. Universities teach people that they need to be taught. Rather than putting two and two together ("I installed new software and my machine is giving me this error--perhaps I should uninstall the new software or contact the vendor"), the typical response I see is, "I didn't take any computer science classes at school, so I don't know what to do."

Yes, my kids will attend a univerisity. But I'm wary of those that want a premium price. It is just another giant Ponzi scheme as far as I'm concerned. As soon as the economy takes a turn for the worse, the ivy league MBA discovers the true value of his sheepskin.

[jziegler]

Wow, what a great topic, and some great thoughts here already.

I personally feel that getting the degree is worthwhile. I'm not sure that I agree with Loring about getting a master's degree, but then I'm doing very well with just my BS in electrical engineering.

A good college education is about more than just the books, and I think that I got much of that. But, at the same time, I saw many people just muddle through, and have a hard time beleiving that they are doing as well. I think many went into engineering hoping to get into management, or some other field, using it as a jumping point or because of it having a decent starting salary. I did it because it's what I wanted to do. I liked playing with electroincs, and building stuff. I still have no problem with spending my time in the lab staring at an oscilloscope, or setting up testing on the computer... Without getting my degree, no one would hire me for this kind of work, and I wouldn't have the understanding of why things work, even if I knew how they work.

My wife has a BA in music and that degree is very worthwhile too, just for different reasons. She got lessons from a great teacher in school that helped her grow as a musician. ANd of course she made contacts. She still regularly makes trips back to the school for seminars, and concerts too sometimes. While she is not performing much, the degree tells people that she knows enough about music that she has more credability as a private teacher.

Of course, you can be very successful without a degree, but it requires more luck, and often starting your own company, since less people would be willing to hire you.

Jim

[Tom Slick]

I hope you don't feel bad about that. There is more to happiness than your W2.

I sure didn't start this thread to make those w/o degrees feel badly. Or to remind them of their lack of credentials.

heck no I don't feel bad about it, I use it as a life lesson for others. many of those years were spent in the military, great experience they didn't get, and is now paying me back. I have been working my way though college over those years and am starting my junior year at a well known university. I have clarity in what I want from my education and I know what it is worth. my last two semesters have been straight A's because college isn't a big social event for me, I know exactly why I am there. I am going to get a degree in a field that pays well and I enjoy every day of my work. 99% of graduates can't put 10 years experience in their major on their first resume out of college.

In my family we have 2 bachelor's degrees and 3 master's degrees. I absolutely did not want to go to college out of high school. one day I realized that I didn't want to turn wrenches for the rest of my life, I wanted to manage the wrench turners.

[rg32]

For me my education has given me a huge amount of flexibility for the many occupations I have pursued.
Yes, today in a competitive and expensive world it’s a big edge!
Even while working in public education and mostly with students who were not College bound I encouraged them to pursue both a technical education as well the many apprenticeship programs available.
Retirement aint for me!
Even at 57.………..
As a matter of fact Friday I go back to college to pursue a degree in nursing .

[jking]

Last point: I reject that notion that universities teach people to think. I've run into just too many people that prove the opposite is true. Universities teach people that they need to be taught. Rather than putting two and two together ("I installed new software and my machine is giving me this error--perhaps I should uninstall the new software or contact the vendor"), the typical response I see is, "I didn't take any computer science classes at school, so I don't know what to do."

Sincere congratulations, cgallery. Your biggest success was discovering how to make a living doing something you love. Some people never even discover what something they love to do.

I think one of the purposes of higher education is to teach how to learn & apply knowledge. For some people it comes naturally, many can be taught how to learn, unfortunately, there are some who simply never get it. The question of "is it worth it?" depends on what worth you are looking at. If you are looking at an economic payback, it depends on the person & what their career path is. If they are going to be a sales clerk or a construction worker, it may not be worthwhile. However, college provides much more than an opportunity for a higher salary. It broadens your view of the world; you become more aware of events and other people.

There are many things you learn in college that you can certainly learn on your own, but, college should speed up the process tremendously. I say "should" because colleges are full of professors who are recruited primarily on researching capabilities. I had several professors who were brilliant in their fields, but had no business teaching others. They simply couldn't figure out how to teach the subject.

Of course in today's business climate, there are fewer and fewer jobs which don't require some skills taught at a higher level. Remember too that in days past apprenticeship was in many ways more demanding than today's higher education.

[jseklund]

I haven't read all the responses yet, so please forgive me if I reiterate prior posts. I have always believed in a few things about education:

1. MOST people go to college for the wrong reasons. We are taught that college is the key to a "good job" or "making it in life". Well, Gates and Dell don't have college degrees. If college increases your potential, than the logical extreme would be that the most wealthy people have a college degree. Buffett does, however, have a degree. Not sure if he received these degrees (he has a masters) before or after his wealth. The point is- a college degree doesn't get you a better job or more money.

2a. Someone figured it out before me. So can I. I've always figured that if someone came up with an idea to build something, figured out a design, and got it together in one piece- then I can figure out how to take those pieces and get them back together. This is true of all information- it is out there.

2b. This could also be stated as "there is no hidden knowledge". I have learned so many things about sales, law, business, marketing, automotive repair, WOODWORKING, home repair, psychology, etc- because I believe this. The sad part is- the information is out there but most people don't use it or know how to use it. I made it through college, literally and sadly, without having ever read a book. Seriously. However- after I graduated I somehow picked up reading. I've read 70 books in about 3.5 years. Know what's really sad? MOST people I come across think that is a lot of reading- for a LIFETIME. I work with 50 year olds who may have read 3-4 books in the same time or less. Thank god I had good teachers in school that, despite my lack of effort, taught me to think logically and showed me how to find and use information.

So why go to college?

1. Quality of life. I believe that people who have the college experience gain much more than knowledge of marketing, medicine, law. You don't get much return on your investment traveling to Europe either. But for a lot of people, it's just something that should be done. It's like pre-adulthood. You're on your own, transitioning, learning, growing, meeting people, exploring. There are plenty of people who can avoid this transition period, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have value.

2. Exposure. I had a physics teacher in HS. I hated it. I never paid attention. I actually got a 35 on one of his tests AFTER the curve. I don't use physics to sell real estate. But I'm sure glad I had that class. Something happened years later that triggered me to look up at the stars and actually start to recognize and have some understaning of the wonder that was out there. Not that I understand the universe- but I know just enough to appreciate how amazing it could be. I also think of those classes when I'm trying to uncover an electrical problem in a house or a car, etc. There are a billion topics out there that we would not be exposed to except we had a teacher, professor, mentor, friend open the door for us. We may not walk through when they open it- but we may come to it at a later date and say, "Oh yeah, he showed me what was inside this doorway. Let me look closer on my own."

I know that people say they wouldn't want a surgeon operating on them without a degree- but I don't really care if he has a degree. I want him to be the best gosh darned surgeon I can find for the situation. His degree doesn't give him that. It just gives him the framework he needs to learn the skills he will need. No different than 1st grade teaching me to read a book. The skills do come faster though when someone who has gone before you can show you the path.

[Black wallnut]

My take on this is skewed. I dropped out after my Junior year and could probably return and complete a BS in Bussiness Admin in about 5 quarters.

A college diploma will in many cases get ones foot in the door and usually does lead to higher earnings than those without.

A post secondary education does not guarentee that the holder has any smarts. Does not always mean the grad really knows anything at all. Does not mean that the grad has learned to work with others. It does however mean that the grad has met standards for a number of years in the field that they were studying. Often I think employeers would rather hire a young grad as much for their lack of knowledge and lack of bad habits than because they may actually know anything. Employeers will likely have to train a new hire anyway.

In my present career path college education really has little bearing on whether someone gets hired or remains employeed. That said if I had a diploma the skills I have and my experience would open a whole bunch of doors that my knowlege and experience alone will not in other industries.

[scorrpio]

If one chooses to pursue a career in applied technical field, a college degree is not necessary. But only very few (usually those with smarts and savvy to start an successfully run own business) will ever reach income levels comparable to many jobs that require degrees.

College gives you access to a way of vastly improving yourself. Colleges have a program-minimum that you gotta complete for that diploma, and if you complete that program to the letter, you'll get through with exceptional GPA - but not necessarily smarter. Too many people never step beyond that boundary in order to plumb the depths of what college really has to offer.

You really have to go above and beyond 'the program' to truly appreciate what college can give you.