Is higher education worth it?

[cgallery]

The other thread (poll) on paying for college brought this to mind.

There is a great line in "Good Will Hunting" where Matt Damon's character tells a Harvard student that he has paid a fortune for an education he could have received with a library card from the Boston public library.

That movie was made ten years ago, and the price of higher education (was already high) has skyrocketed since.

I'm superficially familiar with research about the ROI of a college degree. But the problem is that most if not all of this research is university-generated and pretty self serving.

I understand that some fields require certification, and part of the certification requires formal higher education (an M.D. or nurse, for example).

But I've meet people with the MIT trifecta (undergraduate, graduate, and doctorate) that completely underwhelm me. I've observed as a gentleman with a masters in some engineering discipline (also from MIT) demonstrated that he didn't understand the basic physics of moving a several hundred ton structure (a bridge) up and down (resulting in the destruction of a brand new drawbridge).

I've interviewed fresh graduates from computer science programs that have been unable to write a simple C/C++ program, much less debug existing code.

I could go on and on, but would like to hear thoughts from others first.

[DJehlik]

A friend once quoted this from an unknown source: "Education without common sense is like stacking books on a jackass". How true!

Dave

[Uncle Cracker]

I want my lawyer, my doctor, and my accountant to have an education. Everybody else, I really don't care. And what good is an education if you don't use it?

[LCHIEN]

I don't doubt that there are persons who could get a fine education - all the information is available in free libraries.

But its hard to quantify that the person has learned the information - a college degree is no guarantee either but I think more reliable.

FUrther the information from books is also just that, information and the ability to apply information learned is at least as important a part of a college degree as the information learned. I feel I can always learn more information but getting the exeperience to apply the information is much harder to acquire.

in the end a college degree from a good college should give most of the following and more:

Where to find info
contacts - knowing professors and other classmates who can help
teamwork and the social skills to interact woth other people
laboratory or trade practices and methodology
the ability to solve complex problems with cross-field implications
the ability to apply information learned to solving technical problems
abbilities to organize and meet deadlines
Hands on experience with tools of the trade

I remember a movie once where there was a team of guys, one of whom was an encyclopedia salesman. He did not sell many encyclopedias but spent his time instead reading his samples. The guy only got to the M volume or so when he got fired but his encyclopedic knowlegde helped his friends out on many sticky ocassions, but of course, only when the topic started with a letter lower than "M".

[Tom Slick]

I have ten years in a technical carrer field that is considered to pay good. I was supervisor in my department. during those ten years my 3 best friends went to college and got 4 year degrees with mediocre grades. they all had starting salaries greater then what I was getting paid with 10 years experience.

IMHO if you go into the right major/carreer college pays back very well.

[25]

It depends, what are the GPAs of the people you are interviewing? I bet you're mainly looking at the top 10%. Start looking a little lower and I bet you will be amazed by what those people can do.

While this doesn't always hold true(there are always exceptions), part of the problem with getting a degree now a day is that it's a business. They won't fail out to many people because for every student they flunk out thats tuition that they won't be getting. So it's easier than ever to just coast by and still make it thru.

Not to mention how for some degrees it's easier than every to google your way through when it comes to actual work.

[ragswl4]

Higher education will not make a person successful if they just go through the motions and graduate. Its what a person does with the knowledge that makes the difference. A college degree only opens doors then the person has to perform. It is a waste of time and money to support a person through college who does not want to excel. Its my belief that a person has to show the desire to excel BEFORE anyone should spend their money to fund their college education. That should be obvious by their performance in high school.

I believe a college education is very necessary in today's world, but not for those who don't want to put forth the effort to do well and actually get educated.

Both my daughter's graduated from college One is a business executive and the other a movie producer. They knew what was required of them before they ever set foot in a college classroom. Any drugs, alcohol or poor grades and the money stops. It was made crystal clear from the start. It may sound harsh but it was for them.

I made sure they knew that McDonald's is always looking for a few people, no sheepskin required.

[gwyneth]

I think one of the mistakes people make when considering this question is viewing it as quantitative, rather than qualitative.

What college should do is teach people how to think (Loren has listed some of the ways). It wasn't designed to teach people a trade.

While some undergraduate degrees may seem like training for a trade (engineering, computing, etc.) it's probably a better idea to see them as preparation--learning how to learn more either on the job or in further schooling.

The other thing Loren touched on is one of the most valuable things college offers--teaching students how to work with other people. It provides a 'safe haven' between their families and the real world where students can learn how human systems and organizations work, and how to interface with them.

[Alex Franke]

I've hired software engineers/programmers and marketing/sales staff both self taught and with quality degrees. What I've found is that those with the college education have a better handle on the building blocks of what they're doing, and a clearer idea of how it fits into the big picture. I've found this, too, in those who are "self taught," but it's much rarer.

Generally (to me) self taught equals lacking in foundational knowledge, often a bigger ego ("cowboy" types), and also often much more fire or passion (e.g. the guys that started programming in elementary school -- and not just LOGO). College educated usually equals a deeper understanding, teamwork, and experience applying knowledge successfully across subject boundaries -- maybe they can't write a simple C++ program, but they should be able to pick it up *very* quickly. (Not to say I haven't seen educated kids with egos the size of Canada, or self-taught kids with incredible insight and understanding, but in general I've seen it the other way around...)

I suppose you can get this sort of thing from books, but I think there's a lot you learn (that benefits business) from the college experience that you just can't get from a book. For example, I've always had great success with people that were self-taught at first, but then decided they needed to go back to college and get that sheet of paper.

I've been happier more often with college educated hires than I have with self-taught hires, even if they perform equally well on my KSA evaluations. So I'd have to say that the education is worth it.

[rbfunk]

Before my first retirement, I worked for a small group at Bell Labs. Most of the people had at least a masters degree. Some had thier PhD an one even had 2 doctors degrees. One in mathmatics and the other in physics, we called him scary smart. Also in the group were 3 guys who had 2 year technical degrees. We were known as the lab rats. The geniuses thought the stuff up and the labrats made it work. Sometimes.
The reason this all worked so well is the boss (PhD) put himself through school as a wrench turner in various places.
One time I mentioned that I was uncomfortable with some of the geniuses using a soldering iron. he told me that he got nervous when they used a stapler.
The point I am trying to make is that where and how you get your education isn't as important as how you apply it. As I think back now, the folks that really exceled at the labs had interesting hobbies or other interests outside their "field" The "I got me a degree" crowd either found jobs in marketing and sales or left.
Bob

[dpaton]

"Never Let Schooling Get in the Way of Your Education." - Mark twain.

That said, school is critical to a whole lot of things. If the goal is science, technology, journalism, software, engineering, accounting, etc, then the sheepskin is a given. It's possible to squeak into a job in the US without one, but the odds are extremely long. The most brilliant man I know never finished high school. He has two dozen patents. Yet he's pretty much unemployable to anyone who doesn't make the (significant) effort to understand his past and his capabilities. My personal experience is more limited, but I know for a fact that the name on my diploma was the deciding factor in the last 2 jobs I got, because the hiring managers went to the same school. The actual education received in college these days, in my opinion, largely sucks, but the value of having the degree is undeniable. I figure somewhere between half and 2/3 of my time in college was wasted by my instructors or by poor curriculum, but there's no way I'd ever try and work in a technical field like mine (electrical engineering) without it. The cache it imparts and the access that completion of the curriculum grants are important in competitive situations.

College to be should be able honing and growing and perfecting and proving the student's ability to master concepts on their own. Education is a lifelong process. The degree only proves you can maintain that on your own. At least, it should.

[cgallery]

I have ten years in a technical carrer field that is considered to pay good. I was supervisor in my department. during those ten years my 3 best friends went to college and got 4 year degrees with mediocre grades. they all had starting salaries greater then what I was getting paid with 10 years experience.

IMHO if you go into the right major/carreer college pays back very well.

I hope you don't feel bad about that. There is more to happiness than your W2.

I sure didn't start this thread to make those w/o degrees feel badly. Or to remind them of their lack of credentials.

[cgallery]

"Never Let Schooling Get in the Way of Your Education." - Mark twain.

That said, school is critical to a whole lot of things. If the goal is science, technology, journalism, software, engineering, accounting, etc, then the sheepskin is a given. It's possible to squeak into a job in the US without one, but the odds are extremely long. The most brilliant man I know never finished high school. He has two dozen patents. Yet he's pretty much unemployable to anyone who doesn't make the (significant) effort to understand his past and his capabilities. My personal experience is more limited, but I know for a fact that the name on my diploma was the deciding factor in the last 2 jobs I got, because the hiring managers went to the same school. The actual education received in college these days, in my opinion, largely sucks, but the value of having the degree is undeniable. I figure somewhere between half and 2/3 of my time in college was wasted by my instructors or by poor curriculum, but there's no way I'd ever try and work in a technical field like mine (electrical engineering) without it. The cache it imparts and the access that completion of the curriculum grants are important in competitive situations.

College to be should be able honing and growing and perfecting and proving the student's ability to master concepts on their own. Education is a lifelong process. The degree only proves you can maintain that on your own. At least, it should.

Extremely well put, but discouraging at the same time.

Seems to me that higher education has become about a four to six year detour for young men and women to mature and (hopefully) learn something.

It seems like the universities have become too savvy to the value of the paper and squander their opportunity to fill the minds of their students w/ groovy information.

[LCHIEN]

As both a job seeker and a hiring supervisor, I have found from most of the salary surveys I read that a graduate masters degree is worth about $5K per year more than a bachelors degree.

If you can afford to stay on for a year or two then its well worth the time and money.

[cgallery]

As both a job seeker and a hiring supervisor, I have found from most of the salary surveys I read that a graduate masters degree is worth about $5K per year more than a bachelors degree.

If you can afford to stay on for a year or two then its well worth the time and money.

Hypothetically speaking, if the base for undergraduate is $55k/year, it would take 22 years for you to make the $110k back that you forfeited when you went to graduate school. Of course, that doesn't take into account the cost of graduate school or the time value of money, either.

Not a no-brainer, would require further analysis.