Pot Houses

[LCHIEN]

IN my mind, pot is not all that much worse than alcohol, maybe if as someone stated, a letal does of pot is much harder to ingest than a lethal dose of alcohol, ****, maybe its safer.

I'm personally not too worried about the personal cost to the user, his health etc are his concern. Pot causes lung cancer, alcohol causes cirrosis (sp?)

What I question is the indirect social costs of making such a drug legal. Does that mean we need to allow smoking in bars, have smoking areas for pot smokers along side tobacco users? Will I be served at stores and shops by people who were outside smoking ten minutes before? Will they be driving cars anytime soon? How about productivity loss and accidents...

I think the social costs of alcohol are huge. I think perhaps a totally rational society would ban both alcohol and pot (probably tobacco as well), with sugar not too far behind.

[jseklund]

IN my mind, pot is not all that much worse than alcohol, maybe if as someone stated, a letal does of pot is much harder to ingest than a lethal dose of alcohol, ****, maybe its safer.

I'm personally not too worried about the personal cost to the user, his health etc are his concern. Pot causes lung cancer, alcohol causes cirrosis (sp?)

What I question is the indirect social costs of making such a drug legal. Does that mean we need to allow smoking in bars, have smoking areas for pot smokers along side tobacco users? Will I be served at stores and shops by people who were outside smoking ten minutes before? Will they be driving cars anytime soon? How about productivity loss and accidents...

I think the social costs of alcohol are huge. I think perhaps a totally rational society would ban both alcohol and pot (probably tobacco as well), with sugar not too far behind.

LCHIEN has a much stronger ability for brevity than myself. This is what I was trying to say. You can say that we spend money on drug programs, jail cells, etc.- BUT you cannot even calculate the cost of cigarettes and alcohol on society. Personal health problems are not personal. NOTHING is personal- that is a joke that people tell us to get us to think it only effects us. If I go into the hospital for alcohol poisoning, and I'm taking up a stretcher in the ER, then when you go in because you were hit by a drunk driver- well, too bad. No stretchers left. How much does his health problem cost you then? I know this seems very "unreal", but everything in life is about limited resources.

If our healthcare system wasn't quite so screwed up, we could reduce these costs to a more capitalistic approach- which may actually incent people to take more of a concern about what they do. The idea that "If I go to the hospital, it will cost ME my house to pay for!" will make you think twice about doing something stupid.

But then, if the simple answer is to make it illegal- then where do we stop? As LCHIEN suggests, how much has sugar cost us? How much has KFC cost us? It's not really about making it illegal (even though that does work to a degree I would argue)- it is about educating people to avoid the problem. No one ever says, I want to be a pot head or I want to become an alcoholic- but they all start with the first drink or hit. We don't ever consider that these choices do effect us and may have consequences we think we're immune to.

[maxparot]

I think many of you missed the mark on my post.
First I never said legalize pot.
What I did state was that my feeling is it should be decriminalized, commercialized and regulated!
This is far different from legalized and available on every street corner!
As for someone trying to OD by smoking pot...LOL I dare you to try (call me the next day and let me know how you slept)
I bet if you do try you wake up in much better shape than if you abuse alcohol.
As for other health effects I suggest that instead of quoting the retoric that has been force upon us for years that you read some of the scientific research that has been done on the plant and the effects of smoking it. It is one of the most well studied plants as a pharmacological.
I have read a great deal of the material available (the last 30 years)and get a good laugh when I see the gov't sponsored retoric that has no scientific evidence to support it. Things really have not gotten much better than the days when the gov't sponsored the B&W movie Reefer Madness.
The latest paper on pot use (that I know of) was released in 2005 please learn the facts. If it were not for the postive effects and uses this would not be a debate. The fact of the matter is that the gov't has been lying to us about pot effects and uses for more years than most of us have been alive.
They lie about many things please don't be one of the sheep in the herd. Be an informed intelectual that can sort through retoric, find facts and make informed decisions.

[LCHIEN]

...
But then, if the simple answer is to make it illegal- then where do we stop? As LCHIEN suggests, how much has sugar cost us? How much has KFC cost us? It's not really about making it illegal (even though that does work to a degree I would argue)- it is about educating people to avoid the problem. No one ever says, I want to be a pot head or I want to become an alcoholic- but they all start with the first drink or hit. We don't ever consider that these choices do effect us and may have consequences we think we're immune to.

Hey, you can take away pot and sugar, but don't mess with my KFC

OK Maxparrot, what's a link to this 2005 report and how do I know its factual and not tilted to one side or the other? Seems like you can't get a report that isn't sponsored by one side or the other.

[bigsteel15]

This is getting pretty interesting.
I saw a show or read somewhere that the primary reason for "reefer madness" back in the 20s when it was made illegal was that the big emerging energy giants (and maybe the textile giants) wanted to get rid of the farming of industrial hemp. The plant is extremley useable as most of us know. I actually buy some products from a local farmer that makes various items. Skin lotion, sunscreen, detergent (haven't tried it), smoothie mix, salad oil, etc.
Of course that grade of hemp isn't smokeable, but I guarantee you he has some real product in that field somewhere.
If decriminalizing it and making it available in liquor stores the same as acohol gets rid of the underground and crime element of the market then wwhat is wrong with that.
One thing nobody here has mentioned is the status in Holland. I've never been but haven't heard many negative reports about their system. Canada has actually almost done that a couple years ago but consensus is that the American gov't threatened sactions of some kind if we did it. I believe it won't work if both countries don't implement similar status.
Isn't it just a misdemeanor in CA for personal posession of a certain amount?
I know the traffic of product from BC south has always been very high. If it was legal trade think of the money the gov't would make and all the DEA agents that could work on stopping the harder drugs and maybe take out some of the Crystal Meth epedemic.

[maxparot]

OK Maxparrot, what's a link to this 2005 report and how do I know its factual and not tilted to one side or the other? Seems like you can't get a report that isn't sponsored by one side or the other.

Actually a number of reports sponsored by the US gov't have been published with scientific evidence that disputed the official position of the administration in power so the gov't ignored the reports and continued with deceit like the research never happened.

Seems the gov't and drug dealers want the same results from research, a reason to keep pot illegal. It keeps the profit in it for the police, growers and dealers. Where as positive atributes or reasons to decriminalize don't seem to have the profit incentive. After all it is a cheap weed to grow so it's value if legal would upset a number of markets.
So who would you believe the profit motivated?

And someome mention doctors not considering it as primary perscription because of other available drugs. My question then is why were doctor who did perscribe it in California threatened to have there license to practice pulled by the federal gov't?
Many doctors consider pot to be the best perscription to combat the effects of chemotheropy.
It also is proven to combat glocoma.
It is considered to be an excellent non-addictive pain reliever.
If not for it being illegal it could virtually wipe out insomnia.
And all with minimal health risk to the user and none to society if properly regulated.

As for any particular research or who sponsored it. It was not my point to single out any research. My point is to take an honest look at the subject. There are so many papers on the subject that a 30 second commercial on TV should not be the extent of ones knowledge on the subject. Please google Medical research of Marijuana and do some reading. The truth becomes obvious. Marijuana has medical uses far greater than many drugs in use today with far fewer side effects. (a reason the drug companies don't want it)

[Warren]

Yup, that's really what I want to see. More people on the road under the influence of drugs or alcohol. More people out of touch with reality and unable to raise kids, hold jobs or make simple decisions. We definitely need more druggies on the government dole. Makes sense to me. I believe we have more than enough legal ways for people to avoid reality. Popular demand shouldn't be the criterion for allowing more. We can't regulate the usage of legal drugs as it is, so we might as well give up.

Legalizing a drug doesn't make a cop's job easier. It just makes for more idiots on the streets. Not everyone abuses alcohol and not everyone abuses their prescription drugs. But, enough do that adding to the problem by legalizing another drug which debilitates people is not the answer.

There are all sorts of specious arguements for legalizing some drugs but, none of them cover the increased costs of administering to the mentally crippled people who will abuse it. We need fewer drugs and stronger people who can handle the pains of living and dying. Life's not suppose be painless or easy. It would be pretty dull if it was.

[crokett]

Legalizing a drug doesn't make a cop's job easier. It just makes for more idiots on the streets. Not everyone abuses alcohol and not everyone abuses their prescription drugs. But, enough do that adding to the problem by legalizing another drug which debilitates people is not the answer.

Well said. I was in a debate on this several years ago for college. I had to defend the position of not legalizing pot. My opponent had the same points as maxparot's. I did enough research to realize I couldn't really win arguing against that. And for a while I was convinced it should be legal. Then I realized our society simply isn't responsible enough. Look at the problems with alchohol abuse - and that has immediate feedback (hangovers and being drunk).

[jseklund]

http://www.mth.kcl.ac.uk/~streater/cannabis.html

I think many of you missed the mark on my post.
First I never said legalize pot.
What I did state was that my feeling is it should be decriminalized, commercialized and regulated!
This is far different from legalized and available on every street corner!
As for someone trying to OD by smoking pot...LOL I dare you to try (call me the next day and let me know how you slept)
I bet if you do try you wake up in much better shape than if you abuse alcohol.
As for other health effects I suggest that instead of quoting the retoric that has been force upon us for years that you read some of the scientific research that has been done on the plant and the effects of smoking it. It is one of the most well studied plants as a pharmacological.
I have read a great deal of the material available (the last 30 years)and get a good laugh when I see the gov't sponsored retoric that has no scientific evidence to support it. Things really have not gotten much better than the days when the gov't sponsored the B&W movie Reefer Madness.
The latest paper on pot use (that I know of) was released in 2005 please learn the facts. If it were not for the postive effects and uses this would not be a debate. The fact of the matter is that the gov't has been lying to us about pot effects and uses for more years than most of us have been alive.
They lie about many things please don't be one of the sheep in the herd. Be an informed intelectual that can sort through retoric, find facts and make informed decisions.

Max, I respect your opinion being different than mine. However, I'm going to have to take you to the mat on this debate. No personal harm meant here- just debate.

You say that my side is essentially spewing propaganda perpetrated by the government. YOu claim that I am an not being an informed intellectual who can sort through rhetoric, find facts and make informed decisions. My response is this. I would rather listen to the rhetoric of the US government than the rhetoric of the pot head down the street who thinks that pot has no side effects and is completely safe, and should be legalized. By the way, how can you "decriminilize" something and not make it legal? Are you suggesting that this become illegal, but a civil matter rather than a criminal matter? How will that have any effect on availability, pricing, etc.- within a capitalistic system? A quick search on dictionary.com brought up either this definition or legalize. If you wish to clarify, I am open to understanding more. I AM willing to become an intellectual and learn from you.

Now, if someone here is a pot smoker then this article: http://www.mth.kcl.ac.uk/~streater/cannabis.html suggests that my spending time on this argument is useless, since you could be schizophrenic. But it was probably funded by the government.

Or, a quick search on pubmed reveals these article abstracts:

1. http://www4.infotrieve.com/newmedlin...na&count=10804

This study shows that cannabinoids DO releive anxiety. This in itself suggests chemical changes in the brain, but I really put it here to refute the "using it causes stress because it's illegal- and that stress causes the psychosis" argument. Either it has medical value (relieves stress) AND causes psychosis, or it has no medical value (doesn't releive stress) and is only correlated. This is one factor in not using it....the risk/reward is too skewed towards risk for me.

2. http://www4.infotrieve.com/newmedlin...na&count=10804

Oops- another study saying it is linked to psychosis.


3. http://www4.infotrieve.com/newmedlin...na&count=10804

A study that gives you a point- doesn't find a DIRECT link with cardiovascular health being decreased from marijuana use.

Oh, but I get a point too- body mass, appetite and other factors are worsened with this drug.

4. http://www4.infotrieve.com/newmedlin...na&count=10804

More mood disorders.

5. http://www4.infotrieve.com/newmedlin...na&count=10804

Interesting- people who use marijuana ALSO find non-medical uses for prescription drugs. Go figure. What is the definition of Gateway Drug again?

6.http://www4.infotrieve.com/newmedlin...na&count=10804

One for you- cognition impairment is hard to prove according to this study.

One for me- Attention is definately impaired according to this study.

7. http://www4.infotrieve.com/newmedlin...na&count=10804

hmmm, this study actually concludes that low grades contribute to marijuana use. Gotta relieve all that stress somehow. Maybe the reason that marijuana use APPEARS to impair cognitive function is that only stupid people who get low grades are using it to begin with.

But wait- if it's perfectly healthy, why aren't the smart people getting in on the fun too? How smart is that...we're supposed to be the intellectuals who arrive at our own conclusions. My own conclusion is that low grades and marijuana use may be a bi-directional correlation.

8. http://www4.infotrieve.com/newmedlin...na&count=10804

A study that says that people who drink AND smoke pot are more likely to experience Alcohol and Other Drug related problems (legal, health, etc) than people who just drink alcohol- even when heavy consumption of alcohol by itself is taken into account. Sounds like that gateway drug again.

9. http://www4.infotrieve.com/newmedlin...na&count=10804

This is a study that thought people who DON'T experiment with drugs may become "maladjusted".

"RESULTS: Adolescent abstainers from marijuana often fared better (and in no case worse) than experimenters and frequent users both concurrently and later in life on school engagement, family and peer relations, mental health, and deviant behavior. Similar results were found in ancillary analyses using a definition of adolescent "abstainer" that also accounted for cigarette and alcohol use."

10. http://www4.infotrieve.com/newmedlin...ncer&count=279

A study suggesting marijuana use DOES NOT impair lung function. But- oh, you do have to deal with the increased likelyhood of developing upper and lower lung malignancies. Great- I've got cancer and this will kill the pain. The guy down the street says it's fine for my lungs though *cough* *cough*.

-----------

This is just 10 studies, and I DID pick some skewed towards my side of the fence. In Max's favor, there are studies out there beyond what I included that could be interpreted favorably about marijuana. Actually, there are plenty of articles out there that would suggest Max's point of view isn't wrong at all, and is right. Actually, I learned that some of what he said MAY be right while grabbing these 10 articles. There MAY be more medical use than we're currently aware of. If this is the case though, I go back to my suggestion that if people weren't smoking it merely for recreation- these people who need it medically may be getting it. In this lies the problem with drugs- they are neither good nor bad. It is how we use them. Recreational drug use is the problem, not marijuana.

I have also found ACTUAL studies from peer reviewed journals (like NEJM) that suggest increased tar inhalation, increased lung cancer (what do you expect? someday we'll look back and say the same thing we say about cigarette smokers in the 50's- "what did they think was going to happen? How could they believe that could have been healthy!?") , increased cardiovascular problems, what I find to be pretty convincing cognitive impairment studies (backed up by my own personal experiences), more mood disorders, etc.

I would come up with links to articles- but I have already spent WAY TOO much time on this tonight, and I honestly haven't done the research in about 2-3 years. Please forgive me.

If the government has started to control what the peer reviewed journals and abstracts (I know- abstracts aren't the entire story, but I don't have the funds to prove my point, does that make me wrong?), and doctors, etc.- all say and think about marijuana- then I'd say that's pretty paranoid.

[maxparot]

The real bottom line is our gov't has no right to mislead us.
There is a plant which contains a compound with some unique properties that has been improperly classified. It has properties which make it a good raw material for the textile industy. And does have properties that make it a viable regulated pharmacological.
Once again I'll restate decriminalizing it does not mean legalizing it!
The attitude of, if it's a drug it isn't needed is foolish. Would you say eliminate all medicine. This plant's unique properties need to be exploited in a responsible way. Perscription drugs are only legal with a perscription otherwise you may be guilty of criminal posession. Even over the counter drugs are regulated as is alcohol. Ask yourself why has the gov't given this plant special treatment?

[TB Roye]

Here is the Latest

20 Homes raided in Stockton CA

21 Homes raided in Sacramento CA

70 Million in Pot seized.

unspecificied amount in dollars for the equipment seized.

The houses alone are worth between 300k and 500k each

8 people in custody belonging to a syndicate in Chinatown located in San Francisco CA.

The authorities seem to think there is more comming that there are people higher up the chain that they will get.

You guys have turned this into a very civil and interesting discussion. After having to deal with a Son who is a recovering addict (he is clean and heathy and living a porductive life) and LOML who is a recovering alcoholic (sp) who still has issues with it, I have a little diffeernt view of drugs and alcohol. I do feel that medical marijuana has its place but it should be under a doctors strict supervision not like it is now.

While some of us can drink or smoke a little pot the big problem in society is those who will or cannot be responsible and the problem it causes the rest of us. Then there is the contridiction in CA where the voters have oked Pot for medical use and the Feds come in start busting people for growing and distribution. There was one place busted down in Central California that was supposed to be a Medical Pot distribution center but turned out to be much more with over 500K in sales a week and this was in a small town. For me today I am going Salmon fishing with my son and his new boat. I am so proud of him for the way he has truned his life around.

Tom

[Warren]

There are always people too weak to live life to the fullest and Tom, it is nice to know that your son has returned to the land of the living. So many people want to flee the pressures of everyday life and kind of slide by. Your son probably didn't do it on his own. A strong family unit is so important. Still, he would have accomplished nothing unless he'd decided to suck it up and get back into living. I'd bet he is a stronger person with a greater sense of self-worth. My congratulations to him and to those who never gave up on him.

Hope you limit out and, more importantly, share a roaring good time.

[onedash]

For those who think pot can't kill you watch any of the Friday the 13's. I think anyone whoever got high or naked died.....

[Hoover]

Well, all I know is, pot smoking is legal in the Netherlands. I haven't heard of the Dutch attacking or invading nations. I think the drug you should be concerned with is crystal meth. Those users resort to serious crimes in order to sustain their habit. The TV news in the pacific NW seems to have home invasions, robbery, identify theft, murder and rape crimes as daily fodder. A sizable amount of these crimes are usually tied in with crystal meth users.

[pierhogunn]

on a less than serious note, legalize it, genetically enginner it to make BO smell better please, and sterilize the user...

had a room-mate in college, started out the year pretty motivated student, attending class, etc. Started hard-core smoking, stinking up the room, and didn't finish out the semester...