Ethanol in Gas?

[WayneJ]

I would use it or at least try it but its not sold in New Jersey. My Ranger has a flex fuel engine with standard shift. I read that jersey is going to build a E85 plant in southern part of the state but don't know when. I guess we will get the 10% fuel for now.
Wayne

[430752]

screw corn

Now, as a Illini by birth, I don't really mean that (screw corn), but I do see two problems with it. 1st is that I thought ethanol can carry water molecolues. Which is why it is costing more currently since it can't be piped but needs to be transported by railcar or truck, or so I read. This may cause problems for some engines. which leads to #2 - what about those of us who still believe cars are for going, like fast. I have a focus (yeah, kinda funny), but I've got it tuned within two inches of its life, and shortly hope to have it tuned within an inch of its life. If I ever go aftermarket forced induction (turbo or supercharger), and tune it to the edge of its life, then ethanol would pose a problem, with less efficiency, causing detonation, and not providing the right compression in a high compression engine. (I know, turboing a focus is kinda whack, but I fell in love with forced induction after a series of turbo'd saabs I owned.) So, I suspect with the chip I have which advances the timing, ethanol might be a problem for me, and especially if i add the adjustable cam gears?

curt j.

[jziegler]

Wayne,

I don't know that it is specifically an E85 plant, I think just an Ethanol plant, and the blending would be done by the fuel companies at their facilities. The company is currently looking at an old glass plant in Bridgeton, as far as I know, no construction has begun. So, it's in the works, but I don't expect it to start turning out ethanol anytime soon. But hopefully it will be a bit of a boost to the economy down here, we can use it.

Jim

I would use it or at least try it but its not sold in New Jersey. My Ranger has a flex fuel engine with standard shift. I read that jersey is going to build a E85 plant in southern part of the state but don't know when. I guess we will get the 10% fuel for now.
Wayne

[WayneJ]

Wayne,

I don't know that it is specifically an E85 plant, I think just an Ethanol plant, and the blending would be done by the fuel companies at their facilities. The company is currently looking at an old glass plant in Bridgeton, as far as I know, no construction has begun. So, it's in the works, but I don't expect it to start turning out ethanol anytime soon. But hopefully it will be a bit of a boost to the economy down here, we can use it.

Jim

Thanks Jim.I was wondering how long it would be before we get it here. Knowing N.J. they will put a tax on it somehow and it will cost more than gas, or the ABC will mess it up or maybe the ATF.
Wayne

[greencat]

If I ever go aftermarket forced induction (turbo or supercharger), and tune it to the edge of its life, then ethanol would pose a problem, with less efficiency, causing detonation, and not providing the right compression in a high compression engine. (I know, turboing a focus is kinda whack, but I fell in love with forced induction after a series of turbo'd saabs I owned.) So, I suspect with the chip I have which advances the timing, ethanol might be a problem for me, and especially if i add the adjustable cam gears?

Worst case is a 20% drop in fuel economy so if it is selling for $2.24 then it would be a slight savings compared to $2.75 gas. E85 has a high octane rating 100 - 105 and I would think it would be better for high compression engines. I just like the idea of helping the farmers instead of sending out money overseas.

[Kristofor]

Worst case is a 20% drop in fuel economy so if it is selling for $2.24 then it would be a slight savings compared to $2.75 gas. E85 has a high octane rating 100 - 105 and I would think it would be better for high compression engines. I just like the idea of helping the farmers instead of sending out money overseas.

This may varry by state, but in Minnesota there's a 20 cent state subsidy for ethanol, a 6 cent lower "gas" tax on ethanol, an exemption from the 8 cent minimum profit law. Nationwide there's an exemption from the 5.4 cent federal excise tax, and a 10 cent federal subsidy for producers with less than 30 million gallon capacity. Presumably these things would all need to be eliminated if/when this became a more popular fuel. When that happened you'd be looking a similar prices and much lower mileage.

I believe it's closer to a 30% mileage drop. At least that's what the ethanol lobby claimed (http://www.e85fuel.com/legislation/n...ax_april06.doc) when they have pushed to have the fuel tax adjusted based on miles driven per gallon. This appears to be backed up by the mileage numbers posted on the Fed's website (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm)

Ethanol is a higher octane fuel, so it can be nice in higher compression engines. Of course that increases power, but also fuel consumption...

Again there are good reasons for using ethanol, but the dollars and cents aren't yet a legitimate argument with today's cost of oil.

Kristofor.

[Russianwolf]

This may varry by state, but in Minnesota there's a 20 cent state subsidy for ethanol, a 6 cent lower "gas" tax on ethanol, an exemption from the 8 cent minimum profit law. Nationwide there's an exemption from the 5.4 cent federal excise tax, and a 10 cent federal subsidy for producers with less than 30 million gallon capacity. Presumably these things would all need to be eliminated if/when this became a more popular fuel. When that happened you'd be looking a similar prices and much lower mileage.

I believe it's closer to a 30% mileage drop. At least that's what the ethanol lobby claimed (http://www.e85fuel.com/legislation/n...ax_april06.doc) when they have pushed to have the fuel tax adjusted based on miles driven per gallon. This appears to be backed up by the mileage numbers posted on the Fed's website (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm)

Ethanol is a higher octane fuel, so it can be nice in higher compression engines. Of course that increases power, but also fuel consumption...

Again there are good reasons for using ethanol, but the dollars and cents aren't yet a legitimate argument with today's cost of oil.

Kristofor.

Going from the math I used before. E85 would be

.85E + .15G
1.00E = 70
1.00G = 100

.85E = 59.5
.15G = 15

So .85E + .15G = 74.5

So it's about a 25% drop in energy content.

[Kristofor]

Going from the math I used before. E85 would be

.85E + .15G
1.00E = 70
1.00G = 100

.85E = 59.5
.15G = 15

So .85E + .15G = 74.5

So it's about a 25% drop in energy content.

70% is for the mix, straight ethanol has about 64% of the energy content of gasoline. If this works here's a linky (http://www.bt3central.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=33) to the post I made that included the math last September that derived that number.

Kristofor.

[Russianwolf]

70% is for the mix, straight ethanol has about 64% of the energy content of gasoline. If this works here's a linky (http://www.bt3central.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=33) to the post I made that included the math last September that derived that number.

Kristofor.

Then how do they come up with E10 being 97%? that's the basis for my math.

[Kristofor]

Then how do they come up with E10 being 97%? that's the basis for my math.

Normally they need to add higher octane gas to "normal" gas to hit their desired octane level. The higher octane gas has less energy than lower octane gas. When they add the ethanol (in small amounts) they're also lowering how much of the higher octane gas is needed so they "save" some of the energy loss for that.

However, that higher ocatane gasoline is only a small fraction of the regular mix so the energy content of the mix decreases more once they run out of higher octane fuel to displace.

Kristofor.

[Russianwolf]

Normally they need to add higher octane gas to "normal" gas to hit their desired octane level. The higher octane gas has less energy than lower octane gas. When they add the ethanol (in small amounts) they're also lowering how much of the higher octane gas is needed so they "save" some of the energy loss for that.

However, that higher ocatane gasoline is only a small fraction of the regular mix so the energy content of the mix decreases more once they run out of higher octane fuel to displace.

Kristofor.

So what you're saying is that they are mixing 3 variables, not 2 as my math uses.

Gotcha.