Ethanol in Gas?

[jziegler]

This is slowly starting to change. There are currently plans in the works for an ethanol plant to open up a few towns away from me. The goal is to have it be the largest plant on the east coast. And yes, even the state with the highest population density in the country grows a fair bit of corn. Agriculture is still alive in South Jersey (for now, at least).

Jim

Make that corn farmers in Brazil, which is where much of our fuel grade ethanol is being imported from. Eventually the domestic infrastructure will be put into place to increase US ethanol production, but currently demand is outstripping supply and so we all take a hit at the pumps.

The DoE has put together a nice website that answers the questions raised in this thread: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/

[scorrpio]

You guys are lucky. My ride needs weapons-grade plutonium, you should check prices/avaiability on that. The mileage, however, is insane.

Just kidding!

Frankly, I think that a 100% hydrogen engine is locked up in the same vault as cold fusion powerplant, a teleportation device, and a lightbulb that does not burn out, kept under lock by greedy corporations that make way to much on inferior products.

[Tim Clark]

Actually H2 is being done now. A little modification to your standard IC engine and viola an H2 powered car. I'm going to practice on a small engine first and sometime in the forseeable future my 97 Ram will be running on H2 boosted gas or even straight H2. Either way the technology is available for use TODAY. The vault is open.

For info on ethanol check out http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/index.html

For H2 http://www.clean-air.org/

And http://knowledgepublications.com/page2.htm This one has lots of stuff you can BUY and also a lot of FREE stuff you can access.

[AlanJ]

It surprises me that the US hasn't invested more in propane/natural gas techology as an alternative duel (no, actually it doesn't - with gas being so insanely cheap compared to the rest of the developed world, there was no incentive - until now).

Australians have been driving vehicles fueled by LPG (propane/butane mix) in large numbers for many years. I don't know the actual percentage, but my guess is that something like 20% of the cars on the road can run on LPG - either right off the showroom floor or as an after-market conversion. Right now petrol is about $1.30 a litre down under (about $5 a gallon folks!), and LPG is around 60c. Virtually every other service station in the country has an LPG pump, so it is very convenient - and you can still run on regular petrol too at the flick of a switch.

[SplinterHead]

Does anyone know if E10 has the same shelf life as a non ethanol based gasoline? It would seem that E10 may flash off the ethanol sooner and affect the gasoline mixure. A previous post regarding wipe-on poly made me think of this, and also the fact that I just finished rebuilding my lawn mower's caburator a few hours ago. My question would be, even with fuel saver (which I use) is it possible E10 may help gum-up a fuel system after a certain amount of shelf time?

[Kristofor]

The regulations vary by state and/or metro area depending on air quality. In Minnesota (land of 10,000 corn farmers) we've had mandatory ethanol for years at 10%. Now they'd like to bump that up to 20%. All on-road vehicles in the Twin Cities metro area have to use the oxygenated fuel, though there are pumps for off-road use that dispense non-oxygenated fuel so you don't need to hurt your mower/snowblower/etc. I don't know if it's still the case but in the past stations outside of the metro area were allowed to sell non-ox fuels for use in regular vehicles.

There are a number of ethanol plants in this state, and as long as you don't live very close to one (the common gripe is that they stink, but we've had them for a while here, newer models may be better) they do provide some local jobs and lower transport costs going into the final product cost.

Compared to gasoline ethanol is more expensive per unit volume, while yielding lower mileage (in this double whammy the first may change with higher oil prices or lower ethanol cost, the second never will). It *was* about the same price as gasoline for a while, but with MTBE going out of use the demand has increased. A quick check of the CBOT spot market shows ethanol to be ~35% more expensive than gasoline right now.

There are some strategic benefits to ethanol (money going to ADM, Cargil, and the occasional little farmer rather than Exxon, Shell, and generally corrupt governments of oil exporting nations). It's also using carbon pulled from the air each growing season so in theory it's at or near a wash if we're counting. (of course the carbon in fossil fuels was pulled from the air at one point too). And of course the original reason for requiring oxygenated fuels (at least in non-farmer areas) still applies, namely that they reduce the amount of O3 and NOx produced when gas is burned in an engine. Ethanol actually raises the octane rating of the fuel, so if auto manufacturers were so inclined they could even bring back the higher compression ratios (with the resultant drop in mileage and boost in performance).

Kristofor.

[jziegler]

In concept, hydrogen power is a great idea. Water is the only byproduct. But, when you look a little deeper, it has big problems.

The energy density of hydrogen is much lower than that of gasoline, or even ethanol. So, you need to have a bigger tank to hold it.

The tank to hold hydrogen safely is hard to make. Even the smallest gap in the tank can cause a big leak. The tank has to hold a lot of pressure. Not a problem that can't be solved (remember that the space shuttle uses hydrogen to fuel its main engines), but certainly an engineering challenge.

Where does the hydrogen come from? To split water into hydrogen and oxygen uses lots of electricity which currently (in the US) comes largely from fossil fuels. With all of the inefficiencies down the line, burning the fossil fuels directly is probably more efficient.

None of these are insurmountable, but they combine to make hydrogen a less attractive fuel. Personally, I think one of the best alternative fuels moving forward will be biodiesel. Although switching to ethanol instead of gasoline has some advantages as well. But, the energy density of biodiesel is supposed to be higher than ethanol, and is somewhat simplier to produce.

Have fun with the conversion project!

Jim

Actually H2 is being done now. A little modification to your standard IC engine and viola an H2 powered car. I'm going to practice on a small engine first and sometime in the forseeable future my 97 Ram will be running on H2 boosted gas or even straight H2. Either way the technology is available for use TODAY. The vault is open.

For info on ethanol check out http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/index.html

For H2 http://www.clean-air.org/

And http://knowledgepublications.com/page2.htm This one has lots of stuff you can BUY and also a lot of FREE stuff you can access.

[bigsteel15]

There was a show on TV the other night about the Ethanol plants here on the prairies and when they first started. The general consensus is that the energy burned to produce the grain that produces the ethanol makes the ethanol only about 10% efficient if used as a stand-alone fuel. That said, the fermenting process is very simple and the cleanliness advantage when added to gasoline is of benefit. With our government being on board with Kyoto, there is a mandate to add I think minimum 15-20% ethanol to all gasoline here in Canada.
One of the large refineries up here (Husky/Mohawk Oil) has an ethanol production plant and they were the first to have ethanol blends at the pumps about 10 years ago.
A few farm groups have set up feedlots where they feed the cattle the mash that is left over after the ethanol is produced. The cattle love it and it is very good for them with the sugars in it.
It was originally promoted up here as winter gas.

[dlminehart]

I believe the Brazilians use sugar cane rather than corn as the main source of ethanol. In the US, I understand that the inefficiencies of using corn (i.e., the higher energy costs needed to produce the corn itself) mean that other crops would likely dominate if the market really took off. Initially, with a small market, we'd do OK just with "waste" products like corn cobs, rice hulls, etc. If we really get serious about ethanol, like Brazil, the US would move toward a plant called saw grass. Could grow well in the plains states, I believe.

[Tim Clark]

"The energy density of hydrogen is much lower than that of gasoline, or even ethanol. So, you need to have a bigger tank to hold it."

You can get a 3500 PSI cabon wrapped vessel that will withstand a stick of dynamite and multiple stacked rounds from a 357 mag without failing for around $700 from a couple of sources. It will fit in the back of a GEO Metro and still leave room for the groceries. I have the DVD that shows it. Higher pressures (I think there's a 5000 PSI available) are on the way too.

Yes, your fuel MPG will be lower with Ethanol or H2 compared to gasoline BUT with the price of gas/diesel/oil today it has become far more cost effective to make the switch. Depending on the feedstock availability you could distill etanol for around $1/gal give or take a few cents. That's 190 proof btw, and cannot be mixed with gas due to the h2o in it. You can mix in some naphtha and dehydrate it enough to safely blend with gas (or pass it through zeolyte to remove the h2o) which won't add to the cost signifigantly. It will still be cheaper than gas either way.

H2 can be produced very economically. The set up I have in mind is to use a few solar panels (which you can get for free) run through a power inverter to power my electrolizer. I figure since we're not paying for sunshine (yet) lets use it. And water is well, pretty cheap, right? Eventually I'll use a reversable fuel cell to handle all that but, you gotta start somewhere.

And again, I probably won't be running 100% H2 unless I'm staying close to home. For road trips to get new tools I'll still be able to run on gas. Rather I'll most likely boost another combustable liquid (gas, diesel, ethanol, fry oil, etc.) with about 5% H2. Doing that changes the properties of whatever's in your gas tank to burn like H2 does. Your engine won't know the difference. Add to that the fact that your engine will be running much cooler and way cleaner which will add to the over all life of your engine as well as the lube oil. In the DVD with the GEO (or the P/U they have) they've been running the same oil for several years because there's nothing fouling the cylinder walls and gunking up the oil. No sludge.

For those of you who are concerned with the mpg or available power (BTUs) in ethanol or H2 concider this. How many mpg will you get when there is no more oil available. It's commonly accepted that we are running out. Now is the time to start the lengthy switch from oil to renewable energy.

Check out the links in my last post. You get most of your answers there. I bought several products from knowledgepubs (books,DVDs, etc.) that show you the hands on stuff to do the H2 thing.

[Russianwolf]

It surprises me that the US hasn't invested more in propane/natural gas techology as an alternative duel (no, actually it doesn't - with gas being so insanely cheap compared to the rest of the developed world, there was no incentive - until now).

Australians have been driving vehicles fueled by LPG (propane/butane mix) in large numbers for many years. I don't know the actual percentage, but my guess is that something like 20% of the cars on the road can run on LPG - either right off the showroom floor or as an after-market conversion. Right now petrol is about $1.30 a litre down under (about $5 a gallon folks!), and LPG is around 60c. Virtually every other service station in the country has an LPG pump, so it is very convenient - and you can still run on regular petrol too at the flick of a switch.

We've had LPG fueled vehicles for decades. The problem is that we have no refueling infrastructure. For the most part, we don't have LPG fueling stations. We have some smaller stations in rural areas for refueling the 20lb tanks on RV's and grills for camping, but you would need at least 10 of those to give a car/truck any range. Some utilities use them, but they have to have their own refueling stations. It's sad that we don't have more, but thems the breaks.

A couple years ago I saw where Honda was selling a combo pack of a car that ran on NG and a refueler that you mounted in your garage. You would hook the units hose up to your car and it would refuel the car overnight. Yep, the pressure the unit supplied was too low for a fast refuel.

[Russianwolf]

I see in my internet search that E10 (10% alcohol blend)
has only 97% of the energy of 100% gasoline so I'm going to have a small net decrease in fuel efficiency, as if it wasn't bad enough paying higher prices.

So from that we can derive that Ethonol has 70% of the energy as Gasoline.

1.00G = 100
.90G + .10E = 97
.9G = 90
90 + .10E = 97
.10E = 7
1.00E = 70

If the price was equivalent and the money was going to farmers, I'd run off as much of it as my engine would let me. But I am willing to spend alittle more money on american goods. I'd rather go Biodeisel though.

[greencat]

I was in the Twin cities 2 weeks ago and saw that E85 gas was selling for 50 cents a gallon cheaper then regular. I was talking to an engineer from Ford last week that told me that most people do not realize that their cars can run on flex fuels. I would use it for the same price if it was sold in Michigan.

[AlanJ]

I was in the Twin cities 2 weeks ago and saw that E85 gas was selling for 50 cents a gallon cheaper then regular. I was talking to an engineer from Ford last week that told me that most people do not realize that their cars can run on flex fuels. I would use it for the same price if it was sold in Michigan.

I have tried E85 and in my tests, the cost saving per tankful is almost exactly cancelled out by the poorer fuel economy. You get less mileage, and a noticeable reduction in power.
I would use it more often anyway if it was convenient - but the only place that sells it near me is not on my regular routes. Plus they have only one pump which is always busy. They're not making it easy to be 'greener'.

[Russianwolf]

just checked. Neither of my cars are E85 compatible. Seems that is only certain engines from more recent years, and they skipped my Saturn.