Bowl turning question

[DonHo]

"Oh, about the "don't go crazy on tools" thing? Too late. That train left a couple of years ago. "

Welcome aboard

As for the tool rest, I have what I guess you'd call the C rest and find it helpful on the inside of deeper bowls where it's hard to get a straight rest close enough. I've found I can move the straight rest around the outside of the bowl easier than inside.

I've included some pictures showing a young friend of mine that I'm mentoring in woodworking using a scraper to make a bowl. In the first picture she's actually using the scraper to true up the bottom of the bowl (notice the 2" faceplate) but hopefully you can see the position of the scraper handle being higher than the blade. In the second she's working on the inside of the bowl (the bowl is reversed and held by a chuck, the outside of the bowl has been finished). and in the third picture she's holding the finished bowl, it's sycamore btw. Hope the pictures help some.
DonHo

[dstenson]

Anna, if you're turning end grain it's going to be a slow and laborious process with a bowl gouge. It can certainly be done but you might have better luck with either a hollowing tool or ring tool. I fought with my latest end grain bowl for at least an hour before I started researching better ways to turn end grain. 1. drill out a hole in the center (use either a jacobs chuck, or a gouge). 2. use a hollowing tool to cut from the center towards the edge. I've been looking at version of a ring tool called the "Termite" (http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/termitervu.html) which I might just have to buy/try soon. If you're not turning end gain then just keep that 3/8" bowl gouge sharp and enjoy! hth. D.

[Anna]

In the first picture she's actually using the scraper to true up the bottom of the bowl (notice the 2" faceplate) but hopefully you can see the position of the scraper handle being higher than the blade. In the second she's working on the inside of the bowl (the bowl is reversed and held by a chuck, the outside of the bowl has been finished). and in the third picture she's holding the finished bowl, it's sycamore btw. Hope the pictures help some.
DonHo

Don, thanks for the pictures. I'm really curious about using the scraper now, and I'll order the Benjamin Best rounded scraper from PSI (Woodcraft's is too expensive). Am also ordering the small face plate, I think.

I didn't know that we're supposed to finish the outside of the bowl before reversing it. I thought the face plate is just for making a tenon, although now that I think about it, it sort of makes sense to do most of the outside while the blank is still on the face plate.

What's the white thingy that the bowl seems to be resting on? Did you make it yourself to support the bowl?

If you're not turning end gain then just keep that 3/8" bowl gouge sharp and enjoy!

D, I tried end grain once when I thought I'll make a lidded box. Big time catches. Now that I've learned a little more about controlling the gouge, though, I might give that another go.

I ended up calling one of the turning club guys and asking him to show me how to sharpen my bowl gouge. I think I really messed up the profile today, and it's not even cutting as well as it was before I tried to sharpen it. Oh, well. I really need a lot of educatin'.

[DonHo]

"What's the white thingy that the bowl seems to be resting on? Did you make it yourself to support the bowl?'" The white thingy is just the bottom of the tool rest, you just can't see the rest of it because of the angle.

"I didn't know that we're supposed to finish the outside of the bowl before reversing it. I thought the face plate is just for making a tenon, although now that I think about it, it sort of makes sense to do most of the outside while the blank is still on the face plate."

Well you don't have to finish the outside of the bowl before reversing it but if you're turning dry wood and you want to finish it on the lathe it's the best time because you can still get to all parts of the outside unhindered. BTW she didn't use a tenon but cut a 3/16" deep rebate in the bottom of the bowl and used an internal grip with the chuck. She shaped, sanded and finished the complete outside of the bowl (including the rebate) then reversed the blank and completed the inside including the finish. When she took the bowl off the chuck it was finished. If you use a tenon to grip the blank you have to have a way to remount the bowl (cole jaws or compression jig) to turn the tenon off. I do bowls both ways but am partial to using the rebate and finishing the bowl completely with only one mounting each way. BTW, the rebate is a great place to write your name and the date.
DonHo

[Anna]

BTW she didn't use a tenon but cut a 3/16" deep rebate in the bottom of the bowl and used an internal grip with the chuck. She shaped, sanded and finished the complete outside of the bowl (including the rebate) then reversed the blank and completed the inside including the finish. When she took the bowl off the chuck it was finished. If you use a tenon to grip the blank you have to have a way to remount the bowl (cole jaws or compression jig) to turn the tenon off. I do bowls both ways but am partial to using the rebate and finishing the bowl completely with only one mounting each way. BTW, the rebate is a great place to write your name and the date.
DonHo

If I understand this correctly, I can use the same chuck with both a tenon or rebate? What do you mean by "internal grip" with the chuck? And 3/16" sounds pretty shallow.

This technique sounds interesting to me. Can you please explain it further? I might like to try it with my next bowl.

Thanks!

[gerti]

Most chucks can be used to 'squeeze' a tenon, or in the opposite way by expanding them into a rebate. Don explained the advantages. Downside is while you can squeeze a tenon pretty hard, you can only exert so much pressure onto a rebate before it will blow apart, so it requires lighter cuts when you work the inside.

BTW another reason to finish-sand the outside of a bowl before starting on the inside: When you remove wood on the inside, stresses are relieved and the outside will no longer be perfectly round. And trying to sand something on the lathe that isn't perfectly round doesn't work very well (yes, even you hand can chatter).

Scrapers: The way most folks use them they are a relatively easy to use tool. Personally I don't like to use them that way, it creates a relatively rough cut (especially with end grain). I strive to use my tools so that the resulting cut requires little to no sanding. So I use it more like a card scraper works: A little burr (either from the grinder or re-raised with a hardened steel rod), and the scraper on the edge at about 50 degree and a little downward into the work. That produces a slicing cut, which works quite well to clean up end grain. The shavings look similar to what a card scraper produces. And so that the scraper edge does not dig into the too rest I have it rounded over a bit. I picked that technique up from Alan Lacer who uses it for end grain cuts in lidded vessels.

Anyway, keep at it. Things will get easier.

[DonHo]

"If I understand this correctly, I can use the same chuck with both a tenon or rebate? What do you mean by "internal grip" with the chuck? And 3/16" sounds pretty shallow.

This technique sounds interesting to me. Can you please explain it further? I might like to try it with my next bowl."

Yes you can use the same chuck both ways. There are two types of chucks, some need a square tenon or rebate and the other uses a dovetail. Make sure your tenon or rebate matches the type of chuck you have. By internal grip I mean that the chuck jaws go inside the rebate and expand outward putting the presure inside the rebate as oposed to the jaws being outside the tenon and putting presure on the outside of the tenon. 3/16" is the minimum depth for a rebate per the instructions that came with my chuck, check the instructions that came with your chuck. As mentioned by gerti it's possible to split the bowl with too much pressure outward in a rebate, make sure to leave plenty of wood on the outside of the rebate on the bottom, 3/4" minimum. The techinique is simple and pretty much the same as with a tenon, Just shape the outside of the bowl to your liking then move the tool rest to the bottom of the bowl and true up the bottom (dishing it slightly so the bowl will sit on a small rim around the outside of the bottom. Then cut your rebate( actually just a shallow hole to at least the minimum depth and a little over the minimum diameter listed for your chuck. sand and finish the outside of the bowl including the rebate and your ready to reverse the bowl using the internal grip with the chuck. You may need to touch up the finish on the inside wall of the rebate with a rag but probably not.

As a last thought, as I read through this thread again, I noticed you made reference to "unpacking" the grinder and wolverine jig. I don't know if this means you haven't sharpened your gouges but if so that is your problem. I don't know of any turning tools that come from the store sharp enough for use, unless you paid extra to have them sharpened. Experience will help a lot but even the most experienced turner can't do much with dull tools.

Good luck,
DonHo

[Rich P]

First things first

Anna,

I'm just getting started in turning but I won't fire up my lathe until I have my sharpening station set up properly. In other words, I totally agree with Don's last remark.

As I understand it, properly means a slow speed grinder, friable grinding wheels, a wheel dresser and a good jig and having the station set up conveniently to the lathe. From what I have read, you have at least two of these.

There is a fun video series at FineWoodworking.com where Howard Lewin is turning a green wood bowl and when he starts turning almost immediately stops and sharpens the gouge.

If you have not already obtained them, there are a series of videos on the One Way web site showing how to use the Wolverine jig(s)...highly recommended.

Not sure if this bowl is your first project. If so, you may want to consider doing some between center exercises before tacking the face plate kind. (I know it's temping to plunge into bowls right away.)

I'm frankly surprised that the folks at your club did not caution you about using spindle/roughing gouges on bowls. As others have said, it is dangerous. I'm also surprised they have not emphasized the importance of sharpening. Maybe they have since you already have two of the expensive items required. However, they won't do you any good in their boxes.

Good luck with the bowl.

[Anna]

I have to look at my chuck, but I think it's dovetailed. That should prove interesting when I make the rebate. And I'm guessing I should make the diameter as small as possible to leave as much wood outside the rebate as I can.

As for the sharpening, last time I sharpened my tools was around October. The shop got too cold by then and I didn't go back in there until last weekend. I have the Wolverine jigs currently set up with a high speed grinder. The only tool I'm confident about sharpening is the skew, and that's why I ended up using the skew and the roughing gouge exclusively in making my pens and bottle stoppers. That's also why I tried the skew with the bowl turning, which I quickly found was a very bad idea.

The club guys didn't warn me about using the spindle gouge and roughing gouge for the bowl turning because they probably didn't think anyone is stupid enough to try them. They didn't catch, fortunately; they also didn't feel right. So at least now I know.

They've also mentioned sharpening a few times, but I thought I didn't have a problem there (because at the time I was really only using the skew and roughing gouge). I tried sharpening my bowl gouge yesterday, but I decided I better get one of the club guys to show me the right way. I've seen the One Way videos last year when I was setting up the sharpening station.

Oh, the reason the sharpening station is in the garage is that I was trying to convince my husband to move the lathe in there so I can have more room for the other stuff in the shed. He hasn't relented about giving up his garage, though.

The slow speed grinder is still in its box. I got it to replace the high speed one. It comes with the pink or blue wheels. I've got a wheel dresser somewhere. I'll post a picture later today of the current progress of my "bowl". Maybe you guys can spot what I'm doing wrong.

And I really appreciate all the advice. I've already learned a lot in this thread.

[Anna]

Shallow bowl so far:

[gerti]

Outside looks good! Just as a reference: For a bowl that size, dry Walnut, you can expect multiple trips to the grinder before the bowl is done.

[Anna]

Outside looks good! Just as a reference: For a bowl that size, dry Walnut, you can expect multiple trips to the grinder before the bowl is done.

Thanks, Gerd.

I spent an hour with the turning club guy, and he said that my gouge is okay. I showed him what I was doing and his conclusion was that I'm too conservative in the amount of shavings I'm taking off because I'm too careful about getting a catch. He also said that dried walnut is probably not the best wood to learn from.

He gave me some sharpening tips and loaned me his curved toolrest. I also scored a few pieces of wood, including a 10" round spalted maple and sycamore. I'm determined to at least get halfway through the walnut bowl so I have something to show them next time the small turning group meets.

And next time I experiment on something, I'm picking up some pine.

[RayintheUK]

And next time I experiment on something, I'm picking up some pine.

You do set yourself some challenges, Anna! Walnut to pine will result in you asking how the heck you get a good finish on pine! Try sycamore for a much better experience.

Ray.

[Anna]

You do set yourself some challenges, Anna! Walnut to pine will result in you asking how the heck you get a good finish on pine! Try sycamore for a much better experience. \

If not for you and the other guys in this forum, I'd be wallowing in even deeper ignorance than I currently am in.

Thanks for the heads up. Will stay away from pine.

I did some more turning today and, uh, I had several "design opportunities" with the walnut bowl. Let's just say that the outside profile of my bowl is now significantly different from the picture I posted yesterday.

[don_hart]

One of the best tools I have used for the removal of large amounts of material from the inside of a bowl is an Oland tool. You can buy one online or make your own. They are quire easy to make and amazingly useful. You can see my write up on how to make one on my site www.planethart.com or one the site I first found instructions for it Around the woods. There are videos of the tool in use on the latter site.