Bowl turning question

[Anna]

The bowl turning is going without a catch so far, except that it's taking a loooong time to remove all the waste inside the bowl. I'm using a dried walnut blank.

My bowl gouge is 3/8". Does it make sense to buy a bigger bowl gouge, or is there another tool I don't know about that people use to remove the waste? After a couple of hours, I've barely removed an inch's worth of waste inside a 9" diameter blank.

I tried the roughing gouge, but the bevel/profile does not fit right. I even tried the skew (bad idea) and parting tool (to make deep channels; another bad idea). The only other tools left are a scraper and spindle gouge (also a bad idea, and the scraper is useless in this situation).

I'm going to Woodcraft tomorrow and maybe pick up a 1/2" bowl gouge if that's going to help. Any suggestions? Besides not using a dry walnut blank to learn bowl turning with?

Actually, I'm starting to think that maybe it's time to try out the plug cutter again to remove most of the waste. Is that another bad idea?

[Popeye]

I'm not a real turner like some of the others but that 3/8 bowl gouge should have been more than enough to do the job. I'm thinking it's technique. And I know good turners that use a scraper in hallowing out bowls. Pat

[RayintheUK]

My bowl gouge is 3/8". Does it make sense to buy a bigger bowl gouge ... ?

Yes, but there is a limit - my favorite is a 5/8" bowl gouge with a slight fingernail profile and kept very sharp. If you think that the tool is getting a little dull, it's already too late - touch up the edge frequently when turning dry hardwood blanks.

I tried the roughing gouge, but the bevel/profile does not fit right. I even tried the skew (bad idea) and parting tool (to make deep channels; another bad idea). The only other tools left are a scraper and spindle gouge (also a bad idea, and the scraper is useless in this situation).

PLEASE don't try the roughing gouge again - you were blessed not to get an horrendous dig-in! Skew and parting tool was a mad idea, as you realized and the spindle gouge grind is not suitable either.

You may need to adjust your technique a little. With your bowl gouge really sharp (as they all should be, of course! ), bear in mind that the cutting should be done with the part of the edge from just past noon to around 2 o'clock, when viewing the tool from above and with the hollow in the shaft visible. With the lathe turned off, take some time to see what combination of tool rest position, coupled with tool attack angle, that gives you the best control and keeps the bevel rubbing on the wood. Turning the piece slowly by hand will often give you an idea - as you lift the handle it should start to take a shaving - that's the angle you need and it may be different than you expect.

You MUST avoid having any part of the left-hand side of the cutting edge contact the work when working towards the center of the bowl, otherwise a spectacular catch will result. You can, however, use that part of the tool when working from the center outwards (during the early part of hollowing out).

Actually, I'm starting to think that maybe it's time to try out the plug cutter again to remove most of the waste. Is that another bad idea?

Removing waste by any method is OK, providing that you allow for the depth of the tenon in the base (if you use one).

If you PM me your mailing address, I'll send you a DVD that others found useful.

Ray.

[DonHo]

The first thing to look at is, is your bowl gouge sharp. Turning tools require a lot of sharpening. A 3/8" gouge should be plenty, I don't think a larger tool would help much unless it's a very large and deep bowl. Dry wood is much harder to turn than wet(green) wood but the plus side is once the bowl is finished it's finished you don't have to wait 6 months for it to dry out and then true it up.
Scrapers are mostly used to "finish" the bowl, both inside and outside, using very light cuts, however I've had pretty good luck removing lots of material with a large(1 1/2") round nose scraper that I've modified to have much more of a bevel than they come with. The greater bevel makes it much more agressive and you can remove lots of wood with it. I got mine from PSI, for around $25 (Benjiman's Best brand). First thing though is to make sure your tool is sharp.

Another point is, it's not a good idea to use a roughing gouge on a bowl, it's a BIG catch just waiting to happen.

Good luck and hang in there, the second bowl will go much easier.
DonHo

[Anna]

Hey, thanks for the replies, guys.

You MUST avoid having any part of the left-hand side of the cutting edge contact the work when working towards the center of the bowl, otherwise a spectacular catch will result.

Too late, I already tried that. I was sufficiently suspicious of the technique, though, so that I immediately readjusted. So far, I haven't had a big catch, which is a miracle in and by itself.

Right now, the tool is angled at almost 30° from the vertical when touching the bowl. I figured that if it's completely vertical, there's no scraping at all, and as I move the handle towards the horizontal, I get more scraping/cutting. I know that at full horizontal, I get the most spectacular catches. Between 30° and 45° seem optimal to me.

The point where the gouge is cutting (about 2 o'clock) is on the same vertical plane as the point where the gouge is resting on the tool rest. I thought that that will give me the best control. I don't really know.

I was hoping I didn't have to sharpen the tools so much. My sharpening station is currently in the other side of the house, in the garage, but I guess there's no getting around it and will have to set up some sharpening stuff inside the shed with my lathe. Who was the idiot (besides me) who said that it's not important for lathe tools to be always sharp anyway? I know I read that on the web somewhere.

Scrapers are mostly used to "finish" the bowl, both inside and outside, using very light cuts, however I've had pretty good luck removing lots of material with a large(1 1/2") round nose scraper that I've modified to have much more of a bevel than they come with. The greater bevel makes it much more agressive and you can remove lots of wood with it. I got mine from PSI, for around $25 (Benjiman's Best brand). First thing though is to make sure your tool is sharp.

I've read about that. Maybe I'll pick up a large scraper instead of the bigger bowl gouge. Do I handle it just like a roughing gouge?

Oh, and any ideas about face plates? The one that came with the Jet is large, at least 5" or 6" in diameter, which makes it hard to turn small bowls. My chuck also precludes me from getting too close to the tenon when I'm shaping the bottom. Is there a recommended chuck for bowl turning? I currently have the Pinnacle one that I used for making bottle stoppers.

[Uncle Cracker]

Also make sure you have your tool rest as close to the work as practical. Even with a sharp tool, the closer (therefore more solid) fulcrum can make a world of difference, and your hands and arms will thank you for it.

[Anna]

Also make sure you have your tool rest as close to the work as practical. Even with a sharp tool, the closer (therefore more solid) fulcrum can make a world of difference, and your hands and arms will thank you for it.

I try to keep it within 1/8", but with the bowl, there's always going to be the portion between the edge and the center that will have a bigger gap from the tool rest. Is there a special bowl turning tool rest that curves inwards for this sort of thing?

[DonHo]

For a scraper you should have your tool rest set so the edge is at about the center. For finish scraping you angle the scraper to about 45 degrees so you are actually cutting the wood fiber and use a very light touch to produce very light "dust like" shavings.

For removing material with the more agressive bevel scraper, set the rest about the same but keep the blade flat but angled down slightly(handle slightly higher than blade) use pretty good pressure and move the scraper from the center out toward the edge(you can actually go either way but I've sharpened my scraper a short way up the side so I can work on the transition from bottom to side better). This should produce a large quanity of fairly large shavings. This method will produce more tearout on the end grain but it can be cleaned up with light passes later.

DonHo

About the face plate, you need to get a smaller one. I use a 3" faceplate on up to 11" blanks and a 2" on anything less than 6". I think it was covered in your other thread but use good quality screws because you will probably only be using 3 screws on a 2 or 3" plate.

[Anna]

For removing material with the more agressive bevel scraper, set the rest about the same but keep the blade flat but angled down slightly(handle slightly higher than blade) use pretty good pressure and move the scraper from the center out toward the edge(you can actually go either way but I've sharpened my scraper a short way up the side so I can work on the transition from bottom to side better). This should produce a large quanity of fairly large shavings. This method will produce more tearout on the end grain but it can be cleaned up with light passes later.

Hey, Don,

Just to make sure I understand this right, this is still "rubbing the bevel" but the other way, i.e. the bevel is now facing up with the handle slightly higher than the blade? What angle do you use for the bevel?

I'm definitely stopping at Woodcraft tomorrow and getting a few turning accessories. I'll get a small face plate and probably a large scraper if they have it.

[DonHo]

"Hey, Don,

Just to make sure I understand this right, this is still "rubbing the bevel" but the other way, i.e. the bevel is now facing up with the handle slightly higher than the blade? What angle do you use for the bevel?"

No, with a scraper you do not "rub the bevel", the bevel is on the bottom and because you have the handle a little higher than the blade, the bevel won't be rubbing. The wood will be cut by contact with the top edge of the blade, make double sure the tool is in contact with the tool rest before it contacts the wood. Most scrapers come with a steep bevel of about 80 to 85 degrees, I've ground mine to probably 65 to 70 dregrees, still not as much angle as gouges but plenty agressive for a scraper.
DonHo

[Russianwolf]

I try to keep it within 1/8", but with the bowl, there's always going to be the portion between the edge and the center that will have a bigger gap from the tool rest. Is there a special bowl turning tool rest that curves inwards for this sort of thing?

Yes, there are curved rests for working the insides an outsides of bowls. There are even "s" curved rests. Do a little looking while you're at Woodcraft, they have them.

[Anna]

One last question: Which one is more useful, the C-shaped or S-shaped tool rest?

Thanks.

[gerti]

Don't go crazy on tools. They are all different in use and all require learning, you are just going to drive yourself crazy throwing different tools at it. Stick with the 3/8 bowl gouge. It is a very universal tool, it is possible to do almost anything with it short of parting of the tenon. And it should work well even if it overhangs an inch or so over the rest.

Chances are your problem are with technique and sharpness/profile of the tool. Some DVDs may help, though others are downright dangerous (I can't believe Raffan DVDs don't come with huge "Don't do this at home" stickers). I have found Books to be less helpful to get started, though they may help later on.

The single best thing you could do is to contact your local wood turners club. In my experiences most wood turners are very friendly and helpful, much like the folks on the list here. Go to the American Association of Woodturners site at

http://www.woodturner.org/

and click on the "AAW Local Chapters" link on the left side, and find a local chapter. Don't be shy contacting them. I am sure they will provide you with contact information for a local turner who can provide some hands-on support. You can learn more with a few minutes of help by a more experienced turner than from days of trying for yourself or watching videos. And they will not insist on making you a member or anything, they just love to share their love for the hobby (though joining a local chapter will most certainly be most beneficial).

As you have noticed, turning a bowl is a bit daunting for a beginner. There are a lot of little tricks that make it easier, let others help you. And yes, that last bit, the outside of the bottom, is the most tricky part. Many turners use some kind of contraption for "reverse chucking". But there is nothing wrong with leaving yourself enough waste at the bottom to do most of the bowl while it is in the chuck, then just parting it off and sanding the bottom by hand or with a sanding cup in a drill.

Again, don't go crazy with the tools just yet. A 1/2" bowl gouge make look very similar to a 3/8" gouge, but unless they are from the same steel and with an identical profile, they will behave quite a bit different. If you just try tool after tool in frustration you are not doing yourself a favor, none of them will just magically suddenly work.

Once you get past that initial hump you are in for a lot of fun from turning. Don't give up, we all had to get through that. And we all still have catches!

[gerti]

One last question: Which one is more useful, the C-shaped or S-shaped tool rest?

See my previous post. In your current situation either will not help you much. And it really depends on the type of projects you like to work on and your personal preferences. With some experience you will be able to answer that question.

[Anna]

Hey, Gerd,

I already am a member of the turning club. Some of the members meet every week even when the whole club is not meeting, and they just asked me to join them last week (in their weekly get-together). They showed me some pointers in bowl turning, but it's someone else's wood and tools. We're not meeting this week because the guy who owns the shop we hang out in is away, but we're getting together again next week.

I decided to try it all out for myself this week so that I have a better feel of the entire process and ask the "right" questions when I see them next. I can keep running to them every time I'm in trouble - and I did think about calling one of the guys earlier today - but I really don't want to wear out my welcome. (Well, it's different with you BT3 guys, since you all have such big generous hearts. )

Anyway, I have done some spindle turning, made a few dozen pens and bottle stoppers, and the usual diggler and mallet stuff. I can't really think of many interesting spindle projects, and I think wood bowls are so pretty. I did experiment some with the different tools during the bowl turning, but that was more to get a feel of what's going on. I fortunately did not have a catch with the crazy experimenting, and the soon-to-be bowl is still intact in the chuck.

I didn't know that finishing the bottom is actually difficult. The turning guys promised to show me how to finish the bottom next meeting, and show me some techniques to hold the bowl in place while doing that. They were teasing one guy for "cheating" because he just used a bandsaw to get the tenon off.

I think I'd like to try the big scraper that Don mentioned. And I like the idea of the curved tool rest. I had to keep readjusting the tool rest as I worked on the outside of the bowl, and it would be nice to be able to do a continuous sweep. I also have to unpack the slow-speed grinder I bought months ago so I can set it up with the Wolverine jigs to sharpen the tools. The high speed grinder wasn't so much fun.

Oh, about the "don't go crazy on tools" thing? Too late. That train left a couple of years ago.