Bosch Flesh Detecting Table Saw

[pelligrini]

I wonder how close in actual cost implementing the flesh sensing technology was compared to the 'expert' testimonies in the Osario case and the CPSC committee hearings.

It looks like a pretty decent saw with some nice features, adding in the blade safety aspect makes it even better.

[cwsmith]

Much more like the Ryobi BTS-21 and later RTS-31, than the BT3-series, with the sliding rails (also one lever), rear extension, and folding chassis. No flesh sensing, but the BTS-21 does have a sliding miter table. (The newer RTS-31, though currently listed on the Ryobi site, is no longer available at Home Depot.) IIRC, my BTS-21 sold for around $250. Question I guess is whether that flesh sensor and the Bosch brand is really worth the $1200-plus difference. Of course if you're gonna potentially loose some fingers, it's hard to put a price on those.

Too bad this technology has such a high price on it.

CWS

[capncarl]

Bosch pioneered in the development of the automobile air bag. Would you buy a new car without airbags? I bet in the future the question will be, will you buy a table saw without ( insert the name given to "flesh sensing technology") ?

Let's be the first to name this technology! Someone had to put a name on "air bag" so let's be the ones to name this technology!

I cast the first vote for NUB BLOCKER

capncarl

[cwsmith]

Actually Carl, I would be happy to buy a car without an airbag... but that's another subject.

BTW, my Dad lost two fingers, and mangled a third, on a table saw. I was 14 at the time, and was helping him build kitchen cabinets. I can still hear and see that dreadful moment!

Subsequently I never owned a table saw until I bought my BT3100 in 2005. While the "Saw Stop" and this new Bosch are marvels in safety, I'm afraid that they're priced well above what most woodworkers will want to spend. But still, it's hard to put a price on the flesh of a person.

CWS

[leehljp]

But still, it's hard to put a price on the flesh of a person.

CWS

I agree with this statement to a point. However, the way this type of statement is worded - it basically stops in its tracks any discussion by intimating that there is no alternative, . . . which in itself is not true.

A form of the converse of the statement says that there IS a price point to which certain risk becomes acceptable. It is hard (and wrong) to tell a poor person (or one with lower middle income) that he cannot make a living or enjoy a hobby unless he pays excess amount for safety's sake. He must purchase the safety version that he cannot afford. Therefore the safety models are for the elite and no one else can have it until he comes up with the money.

For those that can afford the safety technology, there should not be an attitude of condescension even if an accident happens. Safety is just as much of an attitude - as it is money to which one can purchase the latest technology.

I guess you guys can tell that I work with generational poverty people, and for those that do work, do the best they can with what is available. If anyone wants to donate a few SS or Bosch's to some trade school I know some people that will be happy. It is hard to put a price on fingers, but when your kids are hungry and you have a few more skills than education, there is risk that can and must be taken.

So far as we are concerned, these saws are the ideal, but for some of the people I know and work with, these saws are as far away as the moon.

[LinuxRandal]

Insurance companies do it all the time. (from workers comp, to accident insurance, and it can even differ from self coverage, to someone else's liability, where they figure out how that can affect your income potential in your life)
Then medical does it, with organ costs, etc.

[cwsmith]

Hank,

I'm sorry, I just didn't look at my statement ("But still, it's hard to put a price on the flesh of a person.") in the same way that you did. I guess I was really attempting to avoid any argument with those who see this technology as a "must have". The price of 'top-of-the-line' tools, is significantly out of reach for too many; to the point that having a novice interest in the hobby can be frightfully concerning and very expensive if this technology is seen as absolutely necessary.

My own feelings are that education and awareness are prerequisite for tool safety. There are several factors that led to my father's accident and all of them were avoidable.

I am to some degree, a product of the environment that you mentioned. Neither of my parents finished high school, and my mother was always sick. My father worked long, labor-intensive hours trying to meet those bills. To help out, I started working with him when I was not quite twelve, and continued well into my late teens, before I struck out on my own. Even then, I paid the biggest share of my income to my folks. There was never the money to buy the best, or even second best. We were more or less, a product of the 30's and 40's, where you made due, repaired what was broken, and used up those things at hand until they could be repaired no more.

While I never received an allowance or wage working with my Dad, I was quite lucky in that I gained skills and experience, which is priceless! That and the good work ethics that he taught me, served me well through my entire career. With that also came a feeling of "value" for tools. In my opinion, some tools just aren’t worth the high price. Tools should be good, but it's the man behind the tools, that's important. Hence, one doesn't have to have the best, but they do have to have an appreciation of the tool at hand; what it will do when handled properly, and how it will hurt IF NOT. Surely, tool quality can assist in the execution of a task and perhaps better accuracy and safety... but only to a point.

Perhaps that's where this new technology comes in, as it fills that gap for those times when people haven’t taken the time to properly learn, or they momentarily forget the attention that such tools demand.

I learned from my father when I was 14.... Don't work when you're tired! Don't work when you're not paying full attention! Don't think you can do whatever you want, without planning. And don't use any tool unless you've checked it out and know it's functioning properly, and you fully know how to use it.

Problem today, is that there's not a lot of places you can learn those things in your youth. If we’re lucky we’ll find a neighbor or friend, but that kind of opportunity is usually quite rare these days. Without that opportunity, it can be very hard to justify the ever-growing expense of woodworking. Like so many things, there’s a less expensive path to take, but it’s not always obvious.

CWS

[leehljp]

Hank,

Perhaps that's where this new technology comes in, as it fills that gap for those times when people haven’t taken the time to properly learn, or they momentarily forget the attention that such tools demand.

I learned from my father when I was 14.... Don't work when you're tired! Don't work when you're not paying full attention! Don't think you can do whatever you want, without planning. And don't use any tool unless you've checked it out and know it's functioning properly, and you fully know how to use it.

Problem today, is that there's not a lot of places you can learn those things in your youth. If we’re lucky we’ll find a neighbor or friend, but that kind of opportunity is usually quite rare these days. Without that opportunity, it can be very hard to justify the ever-growing expense of woodworking. Like so many things, there’s a less expensive path to take, but it’s not always obvious.

CWS

I agree. We are the "tweener" generation - between the old "take full responsibility for yourself, actions and accidents" generation (and we did) and the new generation of "build prevention into the system". One area that I do appreciate that has happened since about the time of the BT3000 introduction and now is the precision of saws, routers, marking tools, and more. Tools and precision measurements that was once left to machinist, engineers and architects are available to most all of us now. For me, I don't have the natural skills and MUST rely on the precision of the current machines and today's measuring devices. ArtWork III has a natural ability and he could build those things that he does - without the need for the precision tools. A few others here have that natural ability, most artists do too.

IN That Vein, Since we have the technology, safety should be incorporated into it where possible. I can see a day when these old saws without safety flesh sensing kill switches will be destroyed due to safety concerns, or they will wind up in some museum. So we are in the "between" age: Between the (safety technology) introduction and before the affordability. Here in the MS Delta, and along the edge of the Delta region, quite a few towns have had job training centers for low income workers and even in "machining". (BTW, Those machinist graduates are making pretty good money in this poverty area).

Still, we are not at the point that affordability for the technology safety is there. I wish we were. There are many technologies that have been developed that would prevent many auto wrecks and even airline crashes, but the cost of installing them would be prohibitive at this point - but we are getting there. We can only hope that less expensive and better technology comes fast. We can't put a price on fingers or lives, but the cost for implementing is prohibitive at the moment. and We can't live in suspension. I wish we could somehow, but we can't.

I appreciate your response. Thanks!