hand jointer

[just started]

Thanks Monte, you got it in before I had a chance to say the same, only not as well. I don't think you could use a new LN enough in one day for it to need even a touch-up on the blade unless you were trying to plane wood that was full of nails and rocks. When you finally do need to hone the edge, you take it out, touch it up and put it back in and go back to work, no tuning needed.

[Russianwolf]

I'll politely continue to disagree

The bedrock series is just a bailey with a slightly different frog that is debateable in improving the plane overall. Some insist that it is an improvement, others insist it was just a way for Stanley to charge more.

Flattening a sole on a plane is something that takes next to no time and is done once.

Dulling a blade on a plane in a day is very possible on any wood if you are using the plane for it's purpose and not just as a fine tuning tool. A jointer is one of the heavy work horses of the planes, Used to flatten faces and joint edges. Thinking that you won't need to sharpen it often is folly unless you want more tearout and chatter. Being a lathe owner, I know of woods that dull Kryogenic tempered blades (6-10 times longer edge holding over HSS blades) making a 6 inch long pen. Face jointing a board with a jointer will definitly wear a blades edge down in a matter of an hour.

As nice as the LV and LN planes are, you don't simply remove the blade, hone it, replace it and start back to work. The replacing take a bit of adjusting to get the blade back in proper alignment and depth before you start working, the same as the Stanley.

Are the LV and LN planes better than the old Stanleys? I agree that they are. But if you think that by buying a LV or LN you can avoid 50% of the learning curve you would need on a stanley, then I think you'll be disappointed.

[milanuk]

Well.... I'll just have to politely disagree right back

The 'user grade' Stanleys I've accumulated, either through new purchase (before I knew better, and still yelped at the price of a LV) or ebay or the local antique stores or flea markets have soles that have noticeable high/low spots. I've knocked them down a bit through quite a bit of vigorous work with 80gr belts glued out on jointer tables, etc. but I've yet to get one where I'd say it was perfect. Pretty much I've had to admit defeat, and settle for the toe and the mouth area being reasonably flat, and call it good as I had already spent hours and hours (probably almost *days* on a couple of them), and still didn't have them where I wanted them. I didn't even bother filing the beds and all that nonsense. Finally just decided someone had probably been using them long before I got 'em, and it obviously hadn't bothered them, so good enough.

Easily accomplished? Not by my standards.

YMMV,

Monte

[dkerfoot]

Of course, many folks think that having a perfectly flat sole is purely marketing.

I think of it like a three-legged stool always being steady - the three points that "register" on the wood are the very tip of the toe, the end of the heel and of course the blade/mouth. Some planes are even corrugated to reduce friction. If you wanted, you could drill holes in the sole and while it may affect the mechanical strength/rigidity, it would have no affect on how the plane registers to the wood.

Obviously, if you had some sort of "lump" in the sole that would cause problems, but slight depressions are inconsequential to the task.

I am NOT saying that LN and LV planes are not worth it. They are beautiful to look at and a joy to hold and use. If woodworking is your business, buying a plane that is ready out of the box may be a sound investment. If woodworking is a hobby, then spending money (you can afford) to buy something that brings pleasure makes all the sense in the world. It may even inspire you to a higher level of craftsmanship - a double win.

But, a fair bit of beautiful furniture has been produced using Stanley Bailey planes. 100 years of having a less than perfectly flat sole does not seem to have hindered them. If a plane is in reasonably sound shape, I can have it back in perfect working order (that is, the condition it was used in by the craftsmen of old) in an hour or two.

The real proof of course, is in the shavings...

[germdoc]

Here's my .02. I love handplanes--have a couple dozen of them. When I made a butcher block table last summer I could not figure out a good way to flatten the top other than with a handplane. So I put my trusty #7 Stanley to work and got it done with a lot of sweat. Great exercise, by the way--uses your entire body.

I got my plane for $35-50 a few years ago on Ebay and fixed it up. Had to derust the body, but in the end it was worth it.

I agree with the above--don't get a handplane unless you want to learn to sharpen it. Of course this is a nice skill to learn. The cheapest/best option IMO is a pair of water sharpening stones, vs. the Work Sharp.

My rec. would be to get an old one and rehab it. Then, of course, you'll be horribly addicted and won't be able to stop getting old planes until your wife serves you with divorce papers. DAMHIKT.

[MikeMcCoy]

This has been an interesting discussion. I bought and then avoided using planes for a long time because I didn't know how to sharpen. A piece of glass with several grits of sand paper went a long way in resolving that problem and then the Veritas MKII got rid of any remaining problems. I have several old Stanleys that are a joy to use but picked up a couple of Lie-Neilsons and more recently 2 Lee Valley planes and they are all a pleasure. Besides everything else, the LN's and the LV's are purty.

I don't have room for a traditional work bench but make due with several different size bench hooks that mount on my table saw.

[dkerfoot]

I ran into this on Highland Woodworking blog after my last post:


http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/i...=Custom&ID=148


Here is the relevant excerpt:

A FLAT SOLE OR NOT
From age 16 to 30 I worked with my planes every day at the bench and at the jobsite before I was made aware that planes needed to be flattened. Suddenly they stopped working properly and I labored night and day to get them dead flat. Checking constantly with an expensive straightedge and grinding away with sandpaper on glass, I struggled and eventually gave up. What had changed between one day my planes working and the next day them not? I must have read some magazine article or talked to someone who had convinced me this was the way it had to be: flat soles equal flat work, etc. Then I attended a seminar with Toshio Odate. He was taking beautifully thin, gossamer shavings with a wooden plane that was purposefully out of flat, and my suspicions were confirmed. The only thing that changed was my attitude and my planes suddenly worked again. They've been fine ever since.

[jackellis]

My rec. would be to get an old one and rehab it. Then, of course, you'll be horribly addicted and won't be able to stop getting old planes until your wife serves you with divorce papers. DAMHIKT.

I've been served

I took up this hobby to preserve my sanity by distracting me from my day job. Fiddling with a bunch of old planes has been educational and theraputic. It's also helping me figure out which planes to use for which tasks, how to make them work properly, how to sharpen (been doing a lot of that) and how to work around limitations. When I decide I'm tired of keeping around the ones I don't use because I have too many, I'll get my money out of them because they were mostly under $30. But then again, most of my tools are "recycled".

[herb fellows]

Here's my .02. I love handplanes--have a couple dozen of them. When I made a butcher block table last summer I could not figure out a good way to flatten the top other than with a handplane. So I put my trusty #7 Stanley to work and got it done with a lot of sweat. Great exercise, by the way--uses your entire body.

I got my plane for $35-50 a few years ago on Ebay and fixed it up. Had to derust the body, but in the end it was worth it.

I agree with the above--don't get a handplane unless you want to learn to sharpen it. Of course this is a nice skill to learn. The cheapest/best option IMO is a pair of water sharpening stones, vs. the Work Sharp.

My rec. would be to get an old one and rehab it. Then, of course, you'll be horribly addicted and won't be able to stop getting old planes until your wife serves you with divorce papers. DAMHIKT.

Sorry, didn't quite get that bit about the work sharp. Could you please elaborate?

[jackellis]

I think the Worksharp is a powered sharpening system. Other options include stones and the so-called Scary Sharp method that uses sandpaper instead of stones.

Personally, I use scary sharp. Old 80 grit sanding belts works quite well for shaping the bevel. Since I can't bear the thought of broken glass in my shop, I use a piece of melamine.

[Turaj]

... Does anyone know why Lee Valley planes cost so much when they are mass produced? Any why does Lie Nielsen's #7 cost $400?

I don't know much about hand planes but if you think these prices are high, then take a look at this Jointing Plane (made by Sauer & Steiner):



http://www.sauerandsteiner.com/galle...g2_itemId=1007

That costs more than my entire shop but it is a beauty!! (I am just waiting for my mortgage approval)

[herb fellows]

Probably several. First, it appears the newer planes use different materials. Second, they appear to be largely machined rather than largely cast. Third, they can be used out of the box, which means more skilled manual labor is employed to sharpen and adjust them at the factory. Finally, the makers are asking what they think the market will bear. There are lots of folks who will gladly pay those hefty prices for tools that look good, feel good and perform well. I have a BT and a Jet cabinet saw. Didn't really need the Jet but I don't have to work around the saw quite as much as I did with the BT (which I still use for some tasks).

I'd prefer to learn on my well-used collection of old planes, but someday I'll probably own a few of the nicer ones too.

I just made a trip to Maine and got the cooks tour of Lie-Nielson. It really is a relatively small operation, (I believe he said a total of about 85 employees) but very impressive.
Each tool might well be 'seen' by 30 or so employees, and each and every one of them has the right to say 'this one doesn't meet our standards'.
There are no 'seconds' at LN. Either it's good enough to have his name or it isn't. Period.
You can certainly argue about the price, but it is the best quality. Is a Rolls Royce worth 8 times the price of a Cadillac? Probably not. But when all is said and done, you do have a Rolls Royce.

[drumpriest]

1)No noisy motor so no need for ear protection.

- entirely true

2)Very little dust (about as close to none as you can get), as you are making very nice cuts when it is tuned properly.

- also true, though I spend more time cleaning up my shavings than dust in my shop, as my canister DC does a good job.

3)Chances of being severly injured by a handplane are very low, unless you throw them around the shop in fits of rage.

- Injured yes, but probably less severely. They don't call it "scary sharp" for nothin.

4) you can get perfect glue joints very easily by clamping the two board side by side with the edges to be jointed up and both of their "top" faces point in opposite directions. Run the jointer along the joint and when you are done the angles will be perfectly complimentary and perfect for glueup. This is extremely difficult to do on a power jointer. (Note, the angle don't have to be perfect 90's to the face, as long as the some of the angles is 180)

- false that this is hard with a power jointer. It's the same work, same requirements. Good technique with sharp blades, and flip the board around so that they 2 angles sum to 180 regardless of the jointer fence being slightly off.

5) at $265 I'm betting you are looking at the Lee Vally jointer or maybe a Lie Neilson. Both very nice tools. But you can get a very dependable vintage Staley # 7 or #8 for about $50-70 that will proform admirable also.

- not sure how this is a comment about power jointers, perhaps a price comparison? You can also get some cheap vintage power jointers, they are about the simplest of all wood working machines, not having changed in design for a long long time.

6) Other woodworkers will start to think you are really cool as you actually know how to use a tool that is becomeing a dying art.

- true and false. Planes are cool as can be, love them, dying art my foot! They are so trendy in the wood working biz that they are not going anywhere. There is a resurgence of interest in hand planes, thus the new high quality ones being produced by LV and LN, as well as others entering the fray...

7) Less mess on the floor. And the mess that is produced is likely to be much easier to clean up.

- A repeat of the dust collection argument, I get more mess on the floor that takes longer to clean up because my DC is adequate.

8.Try to flatten a table top with a power jointer.

- no thank you, I'm sure david marks can, on his monster, but that's why they invented wide belt sanders and drum sanders. I don't flatten my table tops with a plane, sorry, instead I go pay 5-10$ at the local cabinet shop and they run it through the time saver. Now flattening that little glue joint difference, bring out the low angle block plane and the card scrapers! Same for the dovetails.

Planes are fun, and they do a great job, but there is a snobbery backlash against power tool users now a days from a subset of plane lovers. For my $ they both do a job. Can a jointer plane do is as well as a power jointer? Oh heck yeah, no question, many argue better, it's up the wood worker which is called for in a given project.

[jackellis]

I spent a lot of time flattening and smoothing a glued-up cutting board.

One thing I'll say in favor of planers is that tearout is not quite as big a problem.

[djcannon]

[QUOTE=dtam;341246]Add another $100 for sharpening supplies (waterstones, sharpening jig, sandpaper, etc), and another $50 for a Hock replacement blade, and your rusty old jointer plane will cost as much if not more than a used stationary power jointer.
QUOTE]

Someone must have alot of money to burn
I got my #7 stanley for about $75 shipped on ebay
I bought a simple blade angle guide $15
some fine sandpaper $5-$10
Found a piece of glass Free
Used the existing blade Included with the plane
I

Planed about 100 board foot of hard maple with that #7 stanley jointer plane I'd rather keep the plane under $100 and have the $300 to buy wood with.

But then again I'd like to think of myself as a woodworker vs' a tool collector. I just don't se the point in spending so much money when great results can be had for much less.