Dust Collection Questions

[dkerfoot]

I have a very small shop area (about 800 CF!). I am also having increasing problems with my sinuses due to dust. I have pretty bad allergies year round and woodworking has not helped. I do wear a good respirator pretty much all the time now.

I am looking at getting either a filtration system or a dust collector. I have a maximum of less than $300 to spend and while looking at the different options, it occurred to me that a decent dust collector might work for both. I have no direct experience with dust collectors (currently use a shop vac) so please let me know where my thinking is flawed.

I am looking at the Penn State dc1bxl: http://www.pennstateind.com/store/dc1bxl-1m.html
I am attracted by the combination of price, 1 micron filtration and 850 CFM air flow.

My thought would be to set it up outside of my shop (I have a storage area directly behind it). I'd run one hose through the wall to my primary dust makers (TS, Router Table, CMS, belt sander) and the other I'd mount something like this in the overhead: http://www.pennstateind.com/store/dbgulp.html and leave it running.

I'd get an air exchange every minute while not running a machine and every two minutes the rest of the time, right? (though really, it would still be an air exchange every minute, just pulling from two different locations)

My understanding is that 425CFM might be a little less than ideal at the machine, but still significantly better than the shop vac, right?

Or, would having hoses that have to drop down in size to accommodate my 21829 TS and even smaller for the CMS, so restrict the flow that all the air would simply go through the unrestricted overhead port?

Thanks in advance for the shared wisdom that I am sure is forthcoming!

[cgallery]

According to Bill Pentz, those 1-micron bags don't really filter down to 1-micron. Is there any chance that you could seal the room the DC will be in? If you could, you would be able to provide return air through some additional filters in the wall between the DC room and the shop, which may further clean-up the air for you.

[dkerfoot]

According to Bill Pentz, those 1-micron bags don't really filter down to 1-micron. Is there any chance that you could seal the room the DC will be in? If you could, you would be able to provide return air through some additional filters in the wall between the DC room and the shop, which may further clean-up the air for you.

I could kinda, sort of seal it. Also the collector would be about 10 feet down a 4 foot wide storage room (actually it was originally a "coal room" 90 years ago when the house was built) and there would be some natural settling space before the air is returned to my home office area (which also includes our furnace, providing additional filtering)

I am always a skeptic about ratings too, even though Penn State claims they are certified for 100% efficiency down to 1 micron: http://www.pennstateind.com/store/dusb.html

But, they are certainly better than the bags that claim 30 microns and even those would beat the heck out of my shop vac.

[Slik Geek]

I am also having increasing problems with my sinuses due to dust. I have pretty bad allergies year round and woodworking has not helped. I do wear a good respirator pretty much all the time now.

It will likely get worse if you don't deal with it decisively. I learned that the hard way.

I have no direct experience with dust collectors (currently use a shop vac) so please let me know where my thinking is flawed.

My original "dust collection" was a shop vac with the standard filter. It likely made things worse because the hazardous small dust particles were propelled into the air as I worked.

I think that you are on the right track with the dust collector.

Also the collector would be about 10 feet down a 4 foot wide storage room (actually it was originally a "coal room" 90 years ago when the house was built) and there would be some natural settling space before the air is returned to my home office area (which also includes our furnace, providing additional filtering)

Your setup sounds mighty similar to my previous one. My concern about the plan for a "settling space" is that the tiny, noxious particles that make it through the filter will not settle all that quickly and will end up in home office area. I had a similar arrangement and found that just working in my office (even after days with no woodworking) would fire up dust allergy symptoms.

It got so bad that I dreaded to work at my desk.

See my post (#9) in the following thread:
http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=26609

Also see my posts (#15,#22 and #26) in the following thread:
http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=26365

[LinuxRandal]

While I agree that a good dust collector will help, even a box fan, with filters on both sides, near your cutting/sanding station, will benefit you. Break out that fan from summer and buy a couple of extra furnace filters, and buy the dust collector.

[dkerfoot]

While I agree that a good dust collector will help, even a box fan, with filters on both sides, near your cutting/sanding station, will benefit you. Break out that fan from summer and buy a couple of extra furnace filters, and buy the dust collector.

I have been planning on doing the box fan thing, but none of the stores are carrying them anymore! Even in Sept, Walmart, Menards, Lowes, etc were all out of stock and had only some of the column type air movers. I thought about ordering one from Amazon, but that seems a little silly to me.

[steve-norrell]

I also have sensitivity problems with dust and chemicals. One problem is that no matter how good your DC is, it will never get 100% of the dust.

As you probably know, if you do have a sensitivity, very small amounts of dust can cause a reaction. I have had good success using a respirator similar to this one from Rockler:

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=6196

I use it when I work with cedar, MDF, particle board, and most plywoods and laminates. They really work. I also use a ShopVac-driven system, set up so it only works on one tool (TS, Router, etc.) at a time. The ShopVac gets most, but not all, of the dust. A real DC should do much better than the ShopVac, but still not get all the dust.

Good luck, Steve

[BasementJunkie]

You probably already know this, but here's a useful link to Bill Pentz's web site. There's lots of good info here, though most of it seems outside your price point.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Index.cfm

[John Hunter]

I noticed the difference in my shop when I added a dust collector, but the real difference was when I bought a Delta 50-875 3-Speed Air Filtration System. http://www.amazon.com/Delta-50-875-3.../dp/B00009LI48

Now with both systems my breathing problems have vanished.

[JimD]

I have had a small DC (1hp Delta) in my shop for several years now. I have a gate at each tool and feel I get adequate performance. If I plane wide boards on the planner it struggles to keep up but otherwise it seems to work fine (on the table saw, radial arm, CMS, router table). I have accumulated a lot of fine dust all over the shop, however. I have the shaker felt bags, supposed to filter down to something like 1 micron (i.e. I replaced the stock bags). I really need to clean the shop to get rid of most of the fine dust but I don't want to. I have a box fan with a washable fine filter on it and it helps but clogs quickly. My conclusion is that the DC keeps wood cuttings off the floor but doesn't keep dust out of the air. If I had used the box fan from day one and cleaned the filter regularly, I suspect I would not have the mess I have now. I used the DC for more than a year before building the box fan filter arrangement and I still do not use it as much as I should.

I think a cartridge filter might also help but I have not decided to buy one, yet. I have a port for the whole house vacumn in the shop so if I ever decide to clean up, I will probably use it because it exhausts to the outside. My shop is in the basement so it is not really heated or cooled although the temperature is mitigated by being surrounded by the house and earth. I wish I had a way to move the DC outside and just let it's air be replaced by outside air leaking in around the garage door but I have no easy way to do this. I would trade a hotter/cooler shop for less fine dust at this point.


Jim

[dkerfoot]

You probably already know this, but here's a useful link to Bill Pentz's web site. There's lots of good info here, though most of it seems outside your price point.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Index.cfm

I hadn't heard of Bill Pentz before this discussion. Now that he has scared me to death - I am wondering where to go with this. A cyclone like he recommends is out of the picture and a collector that can pull 800cfm at the tool through a cyclone is even more so.

I am now considering the Penn Sate DC2000B which seems like an incredible value: http://www.pennstateind.com/store/dc2000b.html Too incredible? Why is the 1.5 HP more expensive?

220V is no problem, but I'll need to measure the ceiling very carefully. I "think" it will fit between the joists.... This wouldn't solve all of the problems Pentz mentions, but it should get the airflow to where it needs to be. And probably pop my eardrums if I shut the door of my little shop!

What do you guys think? Overkill? Still not good enough? If I wasn't having sinus problems, I'd blow Pentz's concerns off - but I do have issues, so he has my attention (if not quite a full conversion)

Just curious, does anyone know who the evil cyclone maker who must not be named for fear of lawsuit is?

Thanks for all the input.

[LCHIEN]

Doug (Dkerfoot),
Bill Pentz has had his website for quite a while.
Some of thie things he would have us do are not practical for the average guy, but of course would be mandatory is we had an undying love for woodworking AND a bad case of wood dust allergy.
What might be practical would be to reach say 70-80 percentile in what he suggests and that Penn state unit might do it. It is more powerful (moves more air) than the $170 Harbor Freight 45378 which is advertised at 2 HP 1600 CFM but really does more like 1200 CFMin reality. THe PS2000 has bigger impellor, higher current draw and importantly 1 micro bags instead of 30 micron bags (no protection against small particles.) Most of us with an understanding get new bags or a canister before using the HF unit.

You should look hard at the canister version; it's $130 more but the canister itself runs ~$165, so better to do it now than later. The advantages of a canister are the pleated filter canister has much more filtering surface area so it does not plug nearly as fast, has much lower restriction at every satge of bag fullness, it cuts finer and more consistently and with just the top it filters better than 2 felt bags making the bottom bag plasctic makes it easy to empty. When the lower bag in the felt bag config gets full, you can guess that the airflow is cut in half!

[dkerfoot]

Thanks for the response Loring.

Funny enough, I was just looking at the possibility of getting the Harbor Freight 2HP and adding the Wynn Environmental Canister: http://www.wynnenv.com/35A_series_cartridge_kit.htm

The PSI 2HP with cannister is simply more than I can swing right now, especially when I consider the cost of pipe, hose and fittings.

I could get the HF for $170 (inside the ever important Christmas Present from LOML Range) and then add one of the canister filters for $110 shipped for a total of $280.

Domestically speaking, there is some advantage in breaking the purchase into two parts. But what would be the better overall choice - the HF with Wynn Canister or the PSI with the 1 micron bag?

[LCHIEN]

that would be a tough call.
the best technical solution would be to swing the PSI with bags now and then a canister upgrade later (next xmas perhaps) and in the final situation have the most airflow and best filtering options.

If this was a one-shot deal then it would depend greatly upon what you plan to do for plumbing. If you have tools with mostly 2.5" ports then even the HF will be throttled for airflow (get the HF+canister for your best filtering options); if you plan to have really nice 5-6" hard ducting then get the PSI.

P.S. JR makes a good point in the following post that I meant to mention and that is a large amount of large diameter piping, gates, and fittings can cost you as much as the DC equipment.

[JR]

I'm running the HF 2HP unit with Wynn filter. It works very well.

It made a huge difference, though, when I added above-table DC (on my BT3K) with a Shark Guard. The above-table hose (2-1/2") also proves useful for attaching sanders and routers.

It takes a long time to pony up to all the DC features you'd want. The plumbing itself can be pretty costly. My advice is to get started with something that will make a difference and you won't grow out of (i.e the PSI or HF units), looking to continually add to it. The box fan idea would augment this setup very nicely, and cheaply, until you could get or build a proper air filter. There's a starter kit of fittings and hose available from HF for ~$42, which also gets you going on hooking things up.

The important thing, IMO, is to make a strong step forward and then keep going in that direction.

JR