PM Shaper vs router table Dilemma

[jessrice]

Okay, I'll start out by saying i know that a shaper and router table are different beasts, but they do have some overlap. I do have 15 years of experince with a router table, but NONE with a shaper.

I am trying to decide what to do with a shaper i got a few months ago.

I currently have a complete benchdog router table, with fence, cabinet, pro router lift, and a lot of the bench dog accessories, htc mobile base, ect. I have a bosch 1617 in this table. Basically the worlds most expensive router table as my wife calls it. I think a total of at least 1100.00, and it would have been more if it hadn't been for amazon promos.

As far as router bits goes, I have a 13 piece freud bit set and a milwaukee 3 piece panel door set. about 180.00 worth in 1/2" bits. Not a really a big investment. Everything else is in 1/4" bits for my old craftsman mounted in the bt3.

Anyway a few months ago, amazon had the Powermatic model 27 3hp shaper for 580.00 with shipping, so i got one. (sorry to bring back bad memories Jeffrey, but i think yours is still in stock) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...861910-1932830

Well, it is still on the pallet in my garage. It was a really good deal, and i have several large projects that i am working on, that include cabinets, molding, baseboards, crown, etc, so i thought it was a good idea.

But I haven't undertaken these project so yet, so it sits, and the longer it sits I keep thinking that I can do just about everything i need on the worlds most expensive router table, and not need a shaper.

BUT, amazon has had some great deals on some shaper related stuff, so i have been adding things like 2 13 piece CMT multi profile molding and cabinet/joinery shaper sets for 100.00 each.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...861910-1932830
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...861910-1932830

and the GT2000 magnetic featherboard system when it was down to 90.00

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...861910-1932830

and they sit in my garage on the pallet as well. Just waiting for use.

So I have about 870.00 invested in roughly $2300.00 of equipment, a deal even by Jeffrey's standards. But i am not sure if it is a deal if i don't get much use out of it. i also know that i will not ever find another deal like it for a shaper.

So what do you guys think, keep it and put it to use, for the little i have invested, or go the ebay/craigslist route and try to sell it as a package. I also still have time to return the CMT kits and GT2000 back to amazon sell the shaper itself.

If i do keep it, years from now i should still be able to get out what i have in it if I decide to sell it, although it might be nice to get that money back and invest in the PM2000 table saw.

So, can you see my dilemma?

Does the home shop owner need a shaper, or would a router table be able to handle the basic things, but slower?
What would you do?

Jesse

[LarryG]

Does the home shop owner need a shaper, or would a router table be able to handle the basic things, but slower?

No. Yes. Sell the shaper for more than you paid (which shouldn't be difficult); put the original purchase price back in your bank account; use the balance to buy router bits or whatever else you need.

What kind of stuff do you build, and how much of it? A shaper is a tool for a production shop. That's not to say you or I couldn't use one, but we certainly don't need one because most of us hobbyist woodworkers don't turn out identical pieces in sufficient quantity to make a shaper earn its floor space. Further, we can do things on a router table that we cannot do with a shaper. So even if you keep the shaper, you will still need your WMERT.

Neither Norm Abram nor David J Marks have a shaper in their shops, which I think says a lot.

Of course all the above overlooks the matter of whether you want one. I probably don't need a Powermatic PM2000 -- but there's one sitting in my shop, in large part because I wanted one. (Possibly a flawed analogy, since a table saw is a lot more versatile than a shaper. But you get the idea.)

EDIT: Here is what router guru Pat Warner has to say about routers versus shapers.

[LCHIEN]

WMERT, Larry? wife may evict router table?

[LarryG]

WMERT = World's Most Expensive Router Table, per the third 'graph of the OP. Pay attention, willya?

[jessrice]

actually WMEHASS

Wife May Evict Husband and Sell Shaper,

if i keep ordering accessories for it since i a not sure i want to keep it,

Today is the last day to start a return on one of the CMT shaper sets from amazon.

Jesse

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Blahhhh. I hate this thread.

Anyway, if I were you I would sell it. I personally do enough cabinet doors involving raised panels that I could easily justify that shaper at the $500 price. $500 shaper instead of table/lift/fence/$350 PC 5718 etc was a good deal for me. However, if you have a nice table, as you state, and you don't do a lot of raised panels then I would sell it.

I would return anything I could. It is not adding much value to the "package" in relation to cost as most folks want to pick their own profiles.

[JimD]

A shaper will make a larger raised panel cut than a router bit will and while I have seen bits to make doors for a house I think a shaper is a lot better suited to this application. On the other hand, a router table will do a 1 1/2 inch edge for a raised panel which is typically adequate. I also made a house full of raised panel doors with just a table saw so I don't think you have to have either one to make an interior door.

My rules for tools is space and need. I only buy what I have space for and if it will do something I cannot do well with tools I already have. I don't have space for another large stationary tool and a shaper is not really large but I think the space would be better used by a stationary sander. If I decide to make another house full of doors, I might reconsider but I'll probably just do something I can do with tools I have - maybe with some new router bits.

Jim

[gwyneth]

The owner of the shop in my backyard is a high-end custom homebuilder and purveyor of rich people's remodeling jobs.

His PM shaper has stayed there collecting dust through the building's morph from auxiliary shop to satellite storage area. He hasn't used it in at least four years.

It was not moved two years ago to the new auxiliary shop with tablesaws no. 3 and 4 and other "used once in a while" equipment. It is now in the "we'll need it the day after we get rid of it" category.

Everybody's situation is different, of course, but if a professional like him is keeping a tool only to make sure it's not needed...

[cabinetman]

A shaper will make a larger raised panel cut than a router bit will and while I have seen bits to make doors for a house I think a shaper is a lot better suited to this application. On the other hand, a router table will do a 1 1/2 inch edge for a raised panel which is typically adequate. I also made a house full of raised panel doors with just a table saw so I don't think you have to have either one to make an interior door.

My rules for tools is space and need. I only buy what I have space for and if it will do something I cannot do well with tools I already have. I don't have space for another large stationary tool and a shaper is not really large but I think the space would be better used by a stationary sander. If I decide to make another house full of doors, I might reconsider but I'll probably just do something I can do with tools I have - maybe with some new router bits.

Jim

That sums up the real issue. I got by with routers and table routers until there was a need for a lot of moulding work on a regular basis. Since a decent shaper is going to be either a 3hp or preferably a 5hp, a 220v line would be needed. In my case, I got a 5hp, and what made it into a really efficient tool was a power feeder. You have the same problem on a shaper as you do with a router table or a table saw. That is, on a smooth feed, with long material, there may be a need to take a step, which throws off the continuity of body movement, with relation to the hands. With a power feeder, a second or third base can be utilized to carry it to another machine, like the TS. I considered the power feeder like a safety device, as an extra hand.

But to reiterate, most procedures can be done with just a router, or a TS.

[jessrice]

Thanks for all of the replies, I guess you guys just helped push me over the edge to what i had already been feeling.

I listed the the shaper on craigs list in Seattle, Spokane, and Portland for 1500.00. I am at least 2.5 hours to about 4 hours away from these major cities.

I got about 10 calls and 6 emails the first day, and had a buyer over the next day by 9:30 from beaverton, i think about 5 hours for him to drive.

I let it go for 1200.00. I am guessing that I could have held out for a bit more, but i was sick of seeing it, and I only had one higher offer for 1250.00. I had one offer as low as 800.00 and another guy tell me that Powermatic was going to surplus those models, and that they wouldnt be worth anything over 1000.00. so i should be happy he was willing to offer that much. He didnt get it!

Anyway, the neighbor's fork lift was gone at a work site, and we still had to load the thing, so after so quick thinking, I called budget truck rental.

Budget rented me a truck, with lift gate, for 30.00 plus 59 cents a mile, which cost about 40.00 total. I backed up the truck to my garage, slide the pallet onto the lift gate, pulled forward, and then the guy backed his truck up to the lift gate and we slide the pallet onto his bed.

It worked out very well, about 100.00 cheaper than renting a forklift for the day, and was easy on the back and shaper. I am going to keep this in mind next time I order something that has a lift gate charge and residential charge, and just have my stuff shipped to the truck terminal.

Then I can go rent a truck for 50.00, and go pick up the item from the terminal and save 150.00.

Anyway thanks for the help, now I am gonna reinvest this money into a PM2000!

Jesse