Got the DC, now what?

[radhak]

thanks to everybody for their advice on me getting the Jet DC-650 on a rather nice bargain of $75 ( http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=26715).

i picked up the said piece today. looks new, runs when plugged in, seems in good condition. the seller's friend was the owner, died recently, so he's helping out the widow.

problem is, looks like this was really not used much : no ducting at all (had rather hoped for some... ), and in fact no manual or anything else. dunno if anything vital is missing, have to print out the user manual from the internet and compare.

ok, so the question is, what do i need to do now? as advised, i read thru bill pentz's website, and was much educated. but frankly, its a bit too verbose for me. there's a lot of detail, maybe a tad info-overload too.

so i am hoping somebody here might be able to 'dumb it down' for me somewhat:
(a) what duct do i need, or can i buy?

as i understand, 6" dia is recommended, as sold by Wynn or Amazon. On Amazon it is selling at $40 for 10', and slightly more at Wynn. But both these are the flexible, ribbed variety which BillPentz (BP) seems to rate low elsewhere in his site. So is it okay, or not? (I only want to hear 'yes', as i am dead certain the other options are gonna be much costlier )
how do i decide between the PVC / HVAC / rigid / flexible and the inflammable/non-, etc?

(b) my dust ports on the TS and the router are the standard small ones (2 1/2, i think), which BP says is useless.

so do i need to enlarging these? how does one enlarge a TS dust port? router might easier, just replacing the dust port. maybe i'd stay with the current ports but use connectors/adaptors from 6" to 2 1/2" (for now)?

(c) i think need a wynn cartridge, right? maybe the $91 one - it's finer (0.5 microns) and much more surface area than the costlier one

(d) do i need any bags, or is just the one collection bag (2, actually, one top and another bottom) that comes with the DC enough?

(e) what else?

(this is where i wish somebody sold a kit : everything you need to upgrade your DC and to connect to your machine and start ww-ing)

[JSCOOK]

(a) what duct do i need, or can i buy?

as i understand, 6" dia is recommended, as sold by Wynn or Amazon. On Amazon it is selling at $40 for 10', and slightly more at Wynn. But both these are the flexible, ribbed variety which BillPentz (BP) seems to rate low elsewhere in his site. So is it okay, or not? (I only want to hear 'yes', as i am dead certain the other options are gonna be much costlier )
how do i decide between the PVC / HVAC / rigid / flexible and the inflammable/non-, etc?

The way I understand Bill Pentz's information, your wasting your time looking at 6" ducting as the port on the DC unit you mention is only 4" and the rated cfm is 650 cfm ... so even if you were to open the inlet port up to 6" you'd still not have the required air speed or CFM required for his recommendations ... FWIW, I'd stick to the factory 4" port and use the shortest 4" hose possible and wheel it around to the tool your using ... reducing the port size at the tool if required to suit ...

(b) my dust ports on the TS and the router are the standard small ones (2 1/2, i think), which BP says is useless.

so do i need to enlarging these? how does one enlarge a TS dust port? router might easier, just replacing the dust port. maybe i'd stay with the current ports but use connectors/adaptors from 6" to 2 1/2" (for now)?

What TS are you referring too? ... if it is the bt3X's, I don't believe there is an acceptable way to enlarge the 2.5" port up ...but what I would recommend is reducing to the 2.5 at the saw port, as well as consider looking at something like the "Shark Guard" to enable you to also collect the dust on top during cutting ... you'll need to split the sution hose to collect at both points at the same time ... again, stay with the 4" hose as your 4" inlet is still going to be the point of restriction in your system ... 6" isn't going to do anything for you.

(c) i think need a wynn cartridge, right? maybe the $91 one - it's finer (0.5 microns) and much more surface area than the costlier one

I've been looking at both of these cannisters ... it depends ... the cheaper one has more suface area but isn't cleanable .. the one that costs more, although is less surface area is cleanable ... hence longer life ... with a 650CFM DC unit, I don't think I'd worry about the surface area as I think it will have little inpact on your system ... a DC with 1200 or 1600 CFM most likely would see a difference ... I'd instead just look at upgrading your bags to 1 micon for now ... for the money, probably your best bet.

(d) do i need any bags, or is just the one collection bag (2, actually, one top and another bottom) that comes with the DC enough?

Scrap the bags that come with that unit, as according to Amazon they are 30 micron and won't do you any good if your concerned about following Bill Pentz's info ... replace the bottom bag with a heavy plastic bag intended for DC units or simple line the inside of the exsiting cloth bag with a heavy garbage bag and use the cloth bag to simply support the trash bag .... your top bag should be upgraded to a 1 micron bag for sure before using this DC unit.

This is only my opinion and what I've understood reading Bill's webpage ... I'm sure others here on this forum will also have other comments or suggestions to help you out ....

[LCHIEN]

6" ducting prob no use, air velocity will be too low with that DC.
Stick to 4" short hoses as suggested before.

Also if looking at canister/cartridges like wynn make sure they fit the 14 or 15" ring you have. I think they have kits to retrofit the 20" rings not sure about the smaller rings.

[eddy merckx]

link[http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=93601

Here's a pretty good deal on a connector kit.

[radhak]

The way I understand Bill Pentz's information, your wasting your time looking at 6" ducting as the port on the DC unit you mention is only 4" and the rated cfm is 650 cfm ... so even if you were to open the inlet port up to 6" you'd still not have the required air speed or CFM required for his recommendations ... FWIW, I'd stick to the factory 4" port and use the shortest 4" hose possible and wheel it around to the tool your using ... reducing the port size at the tool if required to suit ...

and i checked just now - you are right, just 4" on the DC. and using a short hose is not a problem for me, as my work area is really small and i am gonna just use a 2.5 to 4" connector from the tool to the hose

I've been looking at both of these cannisters ... it depends ... the cheaper one has more suface area but isn't cleanable .. the one that costs more, although is less surface area is cleanable ... hence longer life ... with a 650CFM DC unit, I don't think I'd worry about the surface area as I think it will have little inpact on your system ... a DC with 1200 or 1600 CFM most likely would see a difference ... I'd instead just look at upgrading your bags to 1 micon for now ... for the money, probably your best bet.

you might have something there; i might get the bag for immediate use, and buy the cannister subsequently

Scrap the bags that come with that unit, as according to Amazon they are 30 micron and won't do you any good if your concerned about following Bill Pentz's info ... replace the bottom bag with a heavy plastic bag intended for DC units or simple line the inside of the exsiting cloth bag with a heavy garbage bag and use the cloth bag to simply support the trash bag .... your top bag should be upgraded to a 1 micron bag for sure before using this DC unit.

sounds good, and maybe its only now i am beginning to understand how this (or any other DC) works. maybe a second look at BP's site might be easier now.

This is only my opinion and what I've understood reading Bill's webpage ... I'm sure others here on this forum will also have other comments or suggestions to help you out ....

and i can't thank you enough for that...

Also if looking at canister/cartridges like wynn make sure they fit the 14 or 15" ring you have. I think they have kits to retrofit the 20" rings not sure about the smaller rings.

shall do, thanks.

link[http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=93601

Here's a pretty good deal on a connector kit.

yes! thats what i am talking about! neat! thanks.

[JSCOOK]

RADHAK, by no means am I an expert on this subject ... I've simply read BP's information 2-3 times now in attempt to fully digest what he has learned ...

My suggestion to you would be to start using the DC unit you have with a 4" hose as close to the work machine as possible, reducing down to 2.5" at a machines, and upgrading to 1 micron bags ... at least this way some DC is better than nothing ...
In the mean time, keep an eye out for a large used DC unit close to you (I see them quiet fequently posted on Craigslist and other forums) which will come closer to meeting BP's suggestions if that truely is the way you want to go ... then upgrade and sell off the one you have now (there seems to always be a demand for a DC unit no matter the size) ... I hate to say it, but I think in a very short time, you'll find that the 600 CFM that your unit is classed as is actually only something like 250-300CFM and you'll be looking for better performance *if* you truely want to follow BP's recommendations.

One thing to keep in mind though, if you do see a 1500 ~ 1600 CFM unit which has only a 5" inlet, the inlet cover can be changed on most DC to accomdate a 6" inlet by contacting one of the DC manufacturers ... I know this first hand as I have a General 10-110 DC unit which I just bought used (which was actually new but never used) and rated for 1500 CFM but has only a 5" inlet .... I've contacted both Grizzly and General (the Grizzly 6" inlet cover had appeared to be an exact fit) and am ordering a 6" inlet cover from General to allow me to run 6" PVC without the restriction at the inlet cover ... I actually am planning to measure the CFM, SP and Amps once I change the cover to see what true numbers I am actually getting (General has expressed an interest in my project as apparently they haven't tried this themselves on this model) ....I still will have to reduce the hose to 2.5" at the saw port on the BT3100, but my plan is to get a Shark Guard with a 4" port and using the two collection points on the BT3 saw, be able to capture as much fine dust as possible ... it's close but it still isn't perfect ... at the moment, I simply don't have the room or height to allow me to build his Cyclone DC unit.

Hope this helps ... if you reread BP's info again I sure you will get more out of it again and should be much clearer to understand.

[LCHIEN]

I disagree highly with the suggestion to put a 1 micron cloth bag on top and a plastic bag on the bottom.

Putting a plastic bag on the bottom helps greatly with the cleanup - you can just toss the bag and replace as opposed to shaking out and cleaning the cloth bag.

BUT the thing you pay bucks for in a DC is the CFM.
CFM is achieved by minimizing the restriction through the system, and the last restriction for air flow is the path through the machine and out through the bags and whateever layer of dust they have accumulated.

Filter area allows the air out, more filter area is better, its like trying to blow up a leaky bag - its easier if there are more holes in the bag. So a two bag system allows air out of about 50 square feet (lets assume 25 sq ft per bag). If you replace one bag with non-porous plastic then the you have doubled the effort required to blow out thru the filter. - BAD.

If you put a canister on top, then it may have 200 sq feet (due to the pleated filter). That relieves the effort required to blow thru it a lot. Then you have 225 sq ft. So taking away the bottom filter bag and replacing it with plastic you go back to 200 sq ft, a still 8 times as good as before. And you get the benefits of easy cleanup.

Don't forget as the filters get loaded up, with a cake of fine dust, they will reduce performance. The canister will spread the load over a larger area and lose less. Also you can "knock down" the dust into the bottom bag by hitting it with an air blast or beating the canister some (some canisters by jet, Grizz and PSI have manual flappers to do this).

In a two bag system as the lower bag fills you also lose some area.

Hope that explains why you don't want a single felt bag on top and a plastic bag on the bottom.

[JSCOOK]

I disagree highly with the suggestion to put a 1 micron cloth bag on top and a plastic bag on the bottom.

Putting a plastic bag on the bottom helps greatly with the cleanup - you can just toss the bag and replace as opposed to shaking out and cleaning the cloth bag.

BUT the thing you pay bucks for in a DC is the CFM.
CFM is achieved by minimizing the restriction through the system, and the last restriction for air flow is the path through the machine and out through the bags and whateever layer of dust they have accumulated.

Filter area allows the air out, more filter area is better, its like trying to blow up a leaky bag - its easier if there are more holes in the bag. So a two bag system allows air out of about 50 square feet (lets assume 25 sq ft per bag). If you replace one bag with non-porous plastic then the you have doubled the effort required to blow out thru the filter. - BAD.

If you put a canister on top, then it may have 200 sq feet (due to the pleated filter). That relieves the effort required to blow thru it a lot. Then you have 225 sq ft. So taking away the bottom filter bag and replacing it with plastic you go back to 200 sq ft, a still 8 times as good as before. And you get the benefits of easy cleanup.

Don't forget as the filters get loaded up, with a cake of fine dust, they will reduce performance. The canister will spread the load over a larger area and lose less. Also you can "knock down" the dust into the bottom bag by hitting it with an air blast or beating the canister some (some canisters by jet, Grizz and PSI have manual flappers to do this).

In a two bag system as the lower bag fills you also lose some area.

Hope that explains why you don't want a single felt bag on top and a plastic bag on the bottom.

Agreed, good catch Loring ...

I overlooked CFM in that part when I posted as I was think how to make the most of what you've got already with spending the least .... you could replace BOTH bags with 1-Micron Felt ... but I'm not crazy on felt/cloth lowers, as soon as they are punctured you need to replace them and with felt that gets expensive compared to plastic ... or you could go plastic bags bottom and canister top, but cannisters are pretty much 1/2 the cost of a larger unit in itself so is this really the route you wish to go (otherwise put that money and the money from the existing DC into a larger unit which may already come with upgraded bags).

Another option I came across on reading up on DC was IIRC a company called AAF offer "oversized" top bags too, but I'm not too sure how practical that is for a hobbyist ... but then again, the bags on most 600 CFM units are pretty small so an oversized bag may only work out to being the size of a bag that is used on 1200 ~ 1500 CFM unit which isn't too bad ...

Looks any way you go, unless you simply put the DC just outside the door from where your working, your gonna be into spending some money in order to improve the "filtering" capabilities of your DC unit.

[MilDoc]

If you look here:
http://www.etoolclub.com/index.cfm?a...=browse&CID=75

click on the JET model you have, look on the right side, and you can usually download the manual for it.