SawStop technology mandatory?

[steve-u]

Law of unintended consequences

The problem I see with these Hillary-care type ideas is what I call the law of unintended consequences. If safety devices are mandated for a table saw it could significantly increase the price which means a lot less people could afford them. Hence a lot more people will resort to a hand held circular saw to use for the type of cuts normally done on a table saw or user would simply build their own crude table saw with a circular saw. In either case the net result would almost assuredly be a large increase in accidents and not a decrease as the do gooders "intend" to achieve.

Steve

[steve-u]

Just to clarify I am not against implementing safety devices on power tools but in this case the particular technology in question could be prohibitivley expensive.

Steve

[LCHIEN]

Not to take side here, but comparing sawstop to helmets and seat belts is apples and oranges.

Helmets and seatbelts and airbags are mainly to prevent fatalities while saw accidents while always grisly are very seldom fatal.

The government's role, some people feel, is to legislate things that are of benefit to most while possibly against the individual rights and freedoms af a few. That is one interpretation which people whose individual rights and freedoms are restricted like to ignore.

Anti-smoking legislation, seat belts and air bags benefit the majority, by reducing deaths, medical expenses and insurance costs.

But I suppose the saw stop could be argued for some of those.
But not second hand amputations, failure to use other safety devices, etc.


Surely if the saw stop mechanism was required, the saw most of us know and love would not be the same (but its discontinued anyway.) On the other hand we'd all be safer if only the tiniest bit. We can't afford to live totally risk free.

If you don't see a cohesive argument in this post it's because I don't seem to have one.

[Knottscott]

No.... Hasn't he just about soured most of his market by now with these antics? He's a disgrace to his own technology.

[Russianwolf]

Helmets and seatbelts and airbags are mainly to prevent fatalities while saw accidents while always grisly are very seldom fatal.

You know Loring, I had almost this exact paragraph written earlier, but deleted it. Nice to see I wasn't the only one thinking it.

[davidtu]

Just to clarify, my comparison of airbags to the Sawstop was not intended to justify from a safety standpoint--rather, I was making the point that some technologies cannot become economically viable without goverment help.

The example of HDTV might another valid example (other similar technologies end up with multiple competing technologies which then everyone ends up cross-implementing; CD +/- R/RW comes to mind.)

Another example of unintended consequences is ABS and AWD both of which have made some drivers feel invincible as they squander the gained safety margin with more reckless driving. Of course in the case of Sawstop, since it costs so much to "fix" the saw that'd be incentive enough to avoid the blade!

In any case, I think the Sawstop technology is really brilliant and I hope it finds a way to become mainstream and more affordable.

[drumpriest]

This has turned into a political discussion. Sawstop COULD be good tech, let me see info on false positive actions of the mechanism. Is it possible to get it to trip with wet wood, etc...

Required on a TS?? Bad idea in general, that's my view.

Seat belt law? The worst offense of which I can think where a special interest group is controlling my life. Insurance companies dictating political policies. I firmly believe that insurance companies don't give a rats behind about me dying in my car or on my bike. What they DON'T want is to see me disabled, because that costs them money.

This is a man, under the guise of safety, trying to make a buck on someone's paranoia. A tactic taken far too often in our now terrorist aware nation. (for those of us in the USA) I think a riving knife is more important and useful on a saw than sawstop, but I still don't think that it should be required. I think less of Delta and Jet for not having one available, and I find them pathetic for the lack of innovation, but I wouldn't pass a law to MAKE them put one on. I will istead choose a replacement for my BT that has the saftey features I want.

David, I personally don't think I need my $$$ to pay a government to tell me that I have to buy a HDTV. It's not critical to my life, and I don't care if it would make Sony's or any other companies life better if I owned one. And I think you are thinking about DVD+-R not CD, as to my knowledge there isn't a CD+R spec.

I have more to say, but I'll respect Sam's wishes to not rant about our law makers. Viva LCD projectors!!! I'm a movie fan.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Not going to jump knee deep into this one. However, I was at a local lumber yard picking up some wood and walked past the milling shop. Noticed a brand spanking new SawStop sitting there being used by a guy. Noted the bandaging on his had. Yep, the SawStop was the reaction of the employer to him cutting his right hand ring and pinky fingers OFF! They were reattached a couple weeks ago and he is going to be able to keep them with some loss of use. The guy worked there 27 years and just happened to look up to see who was walking by. No kick back or anything.
Employer noted that Workers Compensation self retention limit per claim (basically deductible) was $5000 per occurance. This technology makes a lot of sense to me particularly in heavy use or school applications. I do not like SawStops tactics though.

Keith, speaking of seat belts, our fair state is about the most retarded I have ever witnessed! They require children to ride in car seats until the age of 8 !!!!!! At 7 my son was was 75 lbs and very tall. In a state approved booster seat his head hit the ceiling of the car . . . of course there is the time he fell out of the Expedition as well since his center of gravity was so high in the seat. This law was a direct result of State Farm recommendation based upon their study. Interestly, you see the 20/20 or Dateline or whatever with John Stossel who says car seats are pointless for children over 4 and the life saving statistics are attributed to the fact that they are less mobile. A U Penn study found that having a DVD player in the car was a greater safety mechanism than the car seat, since it kept children still and in their proper seating positions.

[LCHIEN]

...David, I personally don't think I need my $$$ to pay a government to tell me that I have to buy a HDTV. It's not critical to my life, and I don't care if it would make Sony's or any other companies life better if I owned one. And I think you are thinking about DVD+-R not CD, as to my knowledge there isn't a CD+R spec.

I have more to say, but I'll respect Sam's wishes to not rant about our law makers. Viva LCD projectors!!! I'm a movie fan.

Think about it as an opportunity to buy a nice, hardly used 35" direct view 4:3 CRT for very little money.

[Tundra_Man]

Offering more on the alternate viewpoint (and this topic has already been discussed previously), consider other such mandatory safety requirements, like helmets for motorcyclists. Don't see a groundswell of argument against that.

Come visit South Dakota and you'd probably re-think this statement. Every once in a while a legislator proposes a helmet law. The remaining 104 senators and representatives (who ride) take turns beating him with the gavel.

While I'm all for safety, I am not in favor of mandatory requirements that may push the price point of all table saws out of the reach of most users. If they can do it cheaply, great. If not, then they shouldn't mandate it.

The difference between requiring cars to have seat belts and requiring the Saw Stop technology, is that car manufacturers don't have to pay a licensing fee with every vehicle to which they install seat belts.

[430752]

Helmet laws

It seems everyone points to my analogy on the helmet law as being vehemently challenged. But I gotta point out it is not being vehemently challenged.

Look, I'm against helmet laws, as am against most stuff like this. Live free or die, right? But, my point is that as a country we're 300 million strong or so. I bet anti-helmet law people don't even make 10% of the nation. Ask your grandmother whether cyclists should wear helmets. Ask susie the diner waitress. Ask chad, the yuppie. Ask carlos, the bodega owner. Ask hans, the bachelor farmer in minnesota. Ask lionel, the african american assembly line worker. Ask this nation, and anti-helmet law people likely don't matter squat except in those few states which actually held the line. I appreciate the efforts in South Dakota, but last I checked they were gonna merge the dakotas into one - and it would still have a tiny population. America isn't you and I, its all of them, and they're voting with their gut and "common sense", which has become a very acceptable reaction these days, but without ever actually examining the situations and giving an intelligent discussion.

Well, it'll all be moot in a couple years when we're all debating where to get the saw stop cartridges cheaper.

curt j.

[BigguyZ]

Just to throw my 2 cents in... I think that this should indeed be mandatory for industrial/ comercial applications. Goggles and hearing protection are required by OSHA as standard safety equipment in the workplace, so I don't see how this would be any different. I'm sure as Jeffrey stated it's less expensive than a Worker's Comp claim (which my company handles).

However- for less expensive hobby table saws up to the $1500 low end cabinet saws, I don't think it's necessary. Weekend woodworkers don't accrue the number of hours at the table saw and that (theoretically) reduces the chance/ opportunity for debilitating injury. And, as noted, the additional cost would be too much for a woodworker starting out.

I love SawStop's tech, hate their tactics. However, I think any legislation wouldn't require that they use SawStop's patents. So, that would force ALL saw manufacturer's to get their butts in gear and develop lower cost alternatives. Otherwise, SawStop would have a Monopoly on that technology and that goes against the market economy the US is based on.

One last note- About the FCC mandating HDTV. They aren't. What they are requiring is that all channels be DIGITAL. DIGITAL and HDTV are not mutually inclusive. You can have broadcast non-HDTV digital signals. Typically, this is called EDTV, since it's a progressive format, not a interlaced format that the current NTSC signal is. ok??

[Russianwolf]

I think the tech would be great if it just dropped the blade when it sensed a "finger". I don't see the need for the brake.


but without the brake, he doesn't have a steady stream of product sales.


Secondly, if this guy thinks it's such a stellar idea, why doesn't he come out with retrofit kits so that people who agree with him can buy it and put it on their existing saws? Much the same way as Lee does for the Shark.

[LarryG]

I think the tech would be great if it just dropped the blade when it sensed a "finger". I don't see the need for the brake.

I see it ... or don't see it, rather ... the other way around. The brake is what's needed to stop the blade virtually instantaneously, in order to prevent injury; I read somewhere that the elasped time from when the sensor is triggered until the blade is stationary equates to something like 1/10" of rotation measured at the teeth tips. That is FAST. The device's "destructive" brake design is the only way to stop the blade that quickly and still be relatively cheap; i.e., there might be other systems that could theoretically do it, but they would cost far more money, making it even less likely that this device would ever be made mandatory on all table saws. The inventor chose the system he uses as a least-of-all-evils compromise: he knew that nothing is cheaper than brute force.

I don't, however, fully understand the need for the blade to retract below the table's top surface. Since the blade stops that quickly, why couldn't it remain exposed? (It'd be no different than if the saw was sitting there with the power switched off.)

[LinuxRandal]

Without the brake, theoretically, once you start cutting, and your finger(s) get caught, the blade could drop and stick with your finger(s) between it and the table.

On another board, one person is betting that the lawyer, stops selling the saws, and only does the licensing. I said, if he is a smart businessman, he will keep selling the brake accessories (like Gillette).
However, does anyone know how to shut this "feature" off? I would think it would have to have a required shutoff, due to lumber mills and green wood, freshly treated cca (or whatever it's called now), jobsite saws (think of rainy places), etc.