Pondering bulb bans, and shop lighting...

[tfischer]

Lee do you know what color temp the "daylight" bulbs are? I tend to like around 3000K, which is just a little bit whiter than a "standard incandescent". Any more than that, and it's too "hospital white" for my tastes.

[JimD]

I'd like to use LED but they still seem pricey to me. I have no issues, nor does my wife, with CFLs. I use them outside too, successfully. I plan to keep using CFLs until the price comes down on LEDs then switch.

CFLs may not work as well pointed down but we have two commercially made light fixtures with that arrangement. They are pin type bulbs, not screw in, but the ballast is with the tube just like the screw in CFLs. They work well. One is our main light in the kitchen (6 CFLs) and the other the main light in the master bath (4 CFLs).

I've noticed a difference in recent CFLs. They seem to flicker less than the early ones. I've used them for more than 10 years.

[tfischer]

Its also a little publicised fact that CFLs lives and light output are both reduced a significant fraction by mounting in any position other than base down... all of mine are mounted base up in ceiling fixtures of one sort or another. Fine print in the box or package it comes in.

That might be part of my problem - most of my lights are recessed cans with the base needing to be up.

[vaking]

I have converted most of my house lights to CFL or LED already but still have problems with 2 lights that use candelabra base bulbs.
In the dining room I have a crystal chandelier with 9 bulbs. Bulbs are exposed and visible, which rules out CFL bulbs. Also - chandelier is on a dimmer. I finally found some good-looking LED bulbs with small base (and they are dimmable too) - the only problem is that they are $15 - $26 a piece. With 9 of them in one fixture - it bites.
In the family room I have a fan with the light kit which also takes candelabra base bulbs. It is a high end fan with remote control and it has a digital dimmer. I can't seem to find either CFL or LED bulbs that would work with digital dimmers. Even LEDs that are dimmable and work in the chandelier do not want to play nicely with digital dimmers.

[BigguyZ]

I really like some of the new LED bulbs I've seen. Just recently, I bought two Sylvania (I think) LED bulbs that were 60W equivalents. I think I paid $16 for the two pack. They were warm/ yellow, and I think matched well with the color of the old bulbs. But I do think they were brighter than the 60W equivalent they are noted for.

But right now, I have two issues with LED bulbs. The bast majority of the ones I've seen are very directional in their output. Meaning that the old bulbs would shine light in all directions, while due to the heatsink bases, the LEDs don't shine light back in the direction of the socket. For some lights this may not be an issue, but many looks depend on the bulb throwing light everywhere, otherwise they look off.

Also, when we re-wired my brother's entire house, we installed special switches that were "Z Wave" switches. Once we get the controller, we'll be able to have low cost wireless home automation. However, the dimmers that are used are not compatible with LEDs- even LEDs listed as being "dimmer compatible". Something with how these particular switches do the dimming. So, it's two emerging technologies that don't quite work together. I assume down the road something better will come along, or we'll get updated switches/ bulbs, but for now my brother has to forgo upgrading to LED in lieu of having his home automation. (If it's just an on/ off switch- such as for the front/ back lights, then LED will be fine).

[Rslaugh]

.......
The standard that folks seem to be going to is T8, however I have recently heard about yet another fluorescent standard, T5, and I am wondering if those are actually starting to hit the market, and if so do they work as well as T12 / T8 with better efficiency?.....

T5's have been around for awhile and are quite popular as high-bay replacements for metal-halide fixtures. They are efficient and bright, generally too bright when used in lower ceiling applications.

http://www.digikey.com/en-US/article...g-applications

.....
My CFL's burn out with the regularity of a typical incandescent.

CFL's are designed for base down applications (unless spec'd as universal mounting) so will burn out faster than spec'd when used otherwise especially in base up applications (screwed up into a ceiling or hanging fixture).

I'm told you can swap the ballast on most T12 fixtures to convert them to T8 without replacing the whole fixture.

True - The tombstones have the same pin spacing. As mentioned before it will require a new ballast. Ballast wiring diagrams should be available at Mfg websites like Philips & Universal.

Just a point of clarification - no bulbs have been banned in the US. That is a common misperception and the media has further exacerbated the confusion.

What the bill actually says is that bulbs must meet higher efficiency standards. Incandescent bulbs that meet the new standards are available in the box stores as well as most department stores and will remain available for the foreseeable future. ......

Since incandescents will never be able to meet the standards they are effectively banned and the big three manufacturers either have or will stop manufacturing them and are closing plants accordingly. The big box stores bought huge stockpiles before GE, Philips and Sylvania (Siemens) stopped making them. There will be manufacturers overseas who will continue to make them and I'm sure they will get into the country somehow.

I do not think there are any high tech replacements for infrared incandescent bulbs. May be wrong. Halogen does heat up well. I mainly use them for heat, but I know they are used for curing powder coating in some ovens, especially for large items. Banks of those bulbs are installed and by the time the conveyor holding the parts comes out of the tunnel oven, the parts are cured.

Street lights and high powered outdoor spot light may be another area that will remain available and used. Most street lights being Mercury vapor and high powered floods are generally incandescent or halogen......

Specialty lamps are not included in the efficiency requirements.

Street lights are excellent candidates for LED. MV are not very popular anymore especially for new applications. It's hard to replace the high wattage MH used in very tall road way fixtures.

That might be part of my problem - most of my lights are recessed cans with the base needing to be up.

Look for universal mounting. They cost more though.

Other thoughts:
LED's are pricey initially but should more than pay themselves back over time. example 60wt lamp, 1500 hr life (most are<1000), burned 5 hours/day, $0.70 purchase cost vs LED 11wt, 25000 hr life, $15 purchase cost - Electricty = $0.125/KWH. Incandescent cost yr 1 = $15.05 vs $17.50 for the LED. Cost over 5 years is $73.05 vs $27.51. The LED should last over 13 years vs 6 changes in 5 years for the incandescent.

LED's are just now beginning to have recognized standardized testing and specifications. Be careful of no-name brands. Cree is an excellent mfg as is Philips.

Using a permanent marker i write the date on the base of every LED lamp i install in the following format YYMMDD. This does not tell you how many hours it was burned but there are less than 9000 hours in a year total so if an LED burns out in less than 4 years i'm taking it back.

Very few of the non-traditional lamp LED mfg know what CRI (Color Rendering Index) or color temperature is. Therefor it has been very common to have 4 lamps all in one fixture that all have a different color.

Be careful of LED lamps rated much more than 25000 hour life. The LEDs will last 50-100k hours but not the electronics.

I just heard a few weeks ago that Philips has an LED replacement for 4' T8s. Distributor cost is around $18 so they will probably be close to $30 from an electrical wholesaler. Don't know if the big box stores have them yet.

[Rslaugh]

LED Tube lamps - T8 replacements

Philips 48" LED Tube - http://tinyurl.com/n8vzu2c


Another mfg at BORG - http://tinyurl.com/md9g8pv
$39

[LCHIEN]

...
Other thoughts:
LED's are pricey initially but should more than pay themselves back over time. example 60wt lamp, 1500 hr life (most are<1000), burned 5 hours/day, $0.70 purchase cost vs LED 11wt, 25000 hr life, $15 purchase cost - Electricty = $0.125/KWH. Incandescent cost yr 1 = $15.05 vs $17.50 for the LED. Cost over 5 years is $73.05 vs $27.51. The LED should last over 13 years vs 6 changes in 5 years for the incandescent.

LED's are just now beginning to have recognized standardized testing and specifications. Be careful of no-name brands. Cree is an excellent mfg as is Philips.

Using a permanent marker i write the date on the base of every LED lamp i install in the following format YYMMDD. This does not tell you how many hours it was burned but there are less than 9000 hours in a year total so if an LED burns out in less than 4 years i'm taking it back.

Very few of the non-traditional lamp LED mfg know what CRI (Color Rendering Index) or color temperature is. Therefor it has been very common to have 4 lamps all in one fixture that all have a different color.

Be careful of LED lamps rated much more than 25000 hour life. The LEDs will last 50-100k hours but not the electronics.

I just heard a few weeks ago that Philips has an LED replacement for 4' T8s. Distributor cost is around $18 so they will probably be close to $30 from an electrical wholesaler. Don't know if the big box stores have them yet.

Makes a few good points esp. the cost of running incandescent vs LED. I figure the electricity cost of running a 100W bulb for its 1000 hr lifetime is about $12. (That's about 10-20 times the cost of the bulb) That makes a equivalent light output $10 LED at 1/6th the power consumption look really cheap when you think of how many incandescent bulbs you've put in that old fixture over the years. The incandescent bulbs were cheap but the electricity keeps adding up.

[woodturner]

Since incandescents will never be able to meet the standards they are effectively banned and the big three manufacturers either have or will stop manufacturing them and are closing plants accordingly.

Have to disagree on this one. Not to belabor the point, but incandescents that meet the new efficiency standards are already being manufactured and are what we are finding in the box stores, at least in this area.

Stockpiling would not solve the problem, since the law states deadlines after which the old efficiency bulbs cannot be sold.

[Rslaugh]

Have to disagree on this one. Not to belabor the point, but incandescents that meet the new efficiency standards are already being manufactured and are what we are finding in the box stores, at least in this area.

Stockpiling would not solve the problem, since the law states deadlines after which the old efficiency bulbs cannot be sold.

Woodturner - I believe the law talks about the manufacturers ability to sell after the deadline, not retailers. I could be wrong about this but in my mind it doesn't matter since Philips, GE & Sylvania have all elected to not produce and sell these lamps in the US.

I assume you're actually referring to Halogens. These are approximately 25-30% more efficient than incandescents. So lets run a standard halogen up against an LED in the same scenario as above. The LED is a 100 watt equivalent (http://tinyurl.com/lpfxwbk) at 18 watt vs a 72 watt halogen(http://tinyurl.com/mrezche). Cost is $20 vs $2, 1000 hour life vs 25000 hours.

$20/yr for the halogen each year vs $24 for the LED 1st year, $4.10 year for the next 12 years.

[Rslaugh]

Lamp Comparison Spreadsheet

Here's a link to the quick and dirty Cost of Ownership spreadsheet used above.

http://tinyurl.com/Lamp-Compare

[lrr]

Lee do you know what color temp the "daylight" bulbs are? I tend to like around 3000K, which is just a little bit whiter than a "standard incandescent". Any more than that, and it's too "hospital white" for my tastes.

Sorry, been away from forums -- major remodeling of our study.

Daylight is typically 5000K, and ranging up to 6500K. Most of the Daylight bulbs I've seen were rated at 5000K.

The bulbs in the 3000K range are typically called Soft White, but I've also seen Cool White being used. I worked for an LED lighting company a couple years ago and naming conventions differed depending on the manufacturer. It seems to be getting a little more standardized.

[tfischer]

Sorry, been away from forums -- major remodeling of our study.

Daylight is typically 5000K, and ranging up to 6500K. Most of the Daylight bulbs I've seen were rated at 5000K.

The bulbs in the 3000K range are typically called Soft White, but I've also seen Cool White being used. I worked for an LED lighting company a couple years ago and naming conventions differed depending on the manufacturer. It seems to be getting a little more standardized.

Thanks. Not sure why real daylight looks great to me, but the bulbs over about 3000K really look too sterile. Probably a lifetime of incandescent bulbs lol. Maybe they need to make a bulb that gradually increases its color temp over the life of the bulb, to transition you over

[woodturner]

Woodturner - I believe the law talks about the manufacturers ability to sell after the deadline, not retailers.

Here is a link to the law for anyone who wants to read through it.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-11...110publ140.htm

An EPA article explaining bulbs are not banned (easier read than the law to confirm it is sales that are restricted)
http://energy.gov/energysaver/articl...rescent-lights

I could be wrong about this but in my mind it doesn't matter since Philips, GE & Sylvania have all elected to not produce and sell these lamps in the US.

All three companies are producing and selling incandescents that meet the new efficiency standards in the US. Here is the Philips link, the rest are also readily available on the web.
http://www.usa.philips.com/e/philips-lighting/home.html

I assume you're actually referring to Halogens.

No, just the incandescents that meet the efficiency standards, currently for sale in the box stores. Some manufacturers are already offering the halogens in addition, as they will meet the next tier of efficiency standards.

So lets run a standard halogen up against an LED in the same scenario as above.

The discussion was about availability rather than efficiency. No disagreement that CFLs are a more energy efficient option than incandescent, and LEDs can be even more efficient.

My point is that there is no "ban" and incandescents will remain readily available for years. As others have noted in this thread, there can be medical reasons that outweigh the efficiency argument. There are also applications where incandescents are used as heating elements or circuit elements where there is not a practical alternative.

[Rslaugh]

Woodturner - Not trying to be argumentative here. Looking at the Philips link you provided it takes you to what i would call a splash page where there are no products listed. You click a link to a products page and there are no incandescents there, just LED, CFL, Halogen and fluorescent. What am i missing?


Here is a quote from the epa article:
Manufacturers are introducing new halogen bulbs, a type of more efficient, longer-lasting incandescent bulb, that comply with the standard. Companies also are working on high-efficiency incandescent bulbs that could possibly satisfy the requirement.

This pretty much mirrors what i said. HALOGEN bulbs can meet the requirements. These are not the same technology as the tungsten filament we commonly call an incandescent. Philips is not making 60, 75 & 100 wt Tungsten filament incandescent lamps. Here is a link to the replacemnt guide:

http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/....-brochure.pdf

All the replacements listed are "Halogen Incandescent". While they are technically incandescent type lamps the industry considers them very different than the cheap tungsten filament lamps you are used to buying. You might say that is splitting hairs but it is what it is. Very few halogen lamps are sold in this country. In talking to the people I know at Philips that is not changing. LED is where the action is.

As far as some people being able to see the modulation of the LED lamp I don't understand why a standard incandescent doesn't bother them. It turns off 120 times per second. That is a much slower rate than LEDs which are in the Khz range. My guess would be that while the filament does not have any electricity flowing through it 120 times per second the filament can't completely cool off during those periods and still produces some level of light. Fluorescent and CFL are a bit different in that you are not heating up a filament but rather passing current through a gas which causes a coating on the inside glass of the lamp to fluoresce.

At the end of the day Halogens are a bad choice to replace tungsten filament incandescents UNLESS they are better for a medical condition one might have.

Banned vs restricted sales? i'm not sure i understand the difference. You still can't get them.