Yet another electrical upgrade thread

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  • bdk5
    Forum Newbie
    • Mar 2004
    • 76
    • Chicago, IL, USA.

    Yet another electrical upgrade thread

    Since there seem to be so many electrical threads, I thought I'd jump in. I'm having some work done on my house, part of which will include upgrading my current 100 amp service to 200 amp. My basement shop is located in the unfinished portion of the basement where the electrical panel is located. I have three dedicated circuits for my shop (all 20 amp 110v), and the current panel is full. Since they'll be upgrading me to 200 amp service (with a new panel), I was thinking about keeping the old panel to use as a sub-panel for the shop. I haven't proposed this to the contractor yet (so I don't know how much extra they'll charge). Apart from saving space in the new panel, is there any advantage to having my shop on a separate subpanel?

    Thanks,
    Bryan
  • LarryG
    The Full Monte
    • May 2004
    • 6693
    • Off The Back
    • Powermatic PM2000, BT3100-1

    #2
    So both panels would end up in your shop area -- perhaps even side-by-side? If so, and assuming there are plenty of breaker spaces in the new 200A panel to handle your current and presumed future needs, there wouldn't be a lot of benefit that I can think of.

    You'd have more total breaker spaces, obviously. You could kill all the circuits in your shop by flipping the one breaker than feeds the subpanel, or the mains in the subpanel (it could be setup either way), but how often do you need to do that?

    Having a separate subpanel for your shop *might* make it easier to balance the load on the two legs, making it easier to eliminate problems like turning on a high-amperage tool causing fluorescent lights to flicker. But with a 200A main, that is unlikely to be an issue anyway.

    Since the panel is already yours and since it sounds like the heavy-gauge conductors required to feed it would be fairly short, and therefore not too costly, it's arguably worth doing. But I suspect it would be a hedge against the future that you'd never use, unless you expect to be adding a LOT of new circuits someday.
    Last edited by LarryG; 06-13-2008, 08:59 AM.
    Larry

    Comment

    • charliex
      Senior Member
      • Mar 2004
      • 632
      • Spring Valley, MN, USA.
      • Sears equivelent BT3100-1

      #3
      What Larry said. Only thing I see would be more work (dollars for the electrician) You indicated you had 3 20amp circuits already which is 1 more than I have (need). I can only run 2 machines at a time and one is a DC.
      Chas

      Comment

      • poolhound
        Veteran Member
        • Mar 2006
        • 3195
        • Phoenix, AZ
        • BT3100

        #4
        Bryan,

        Basically what Chas and Larry said

        Unless you need more breaker space or want to isolate I cant see a reason to use the extra panel. My main panel is a 200Amp, I cant recall how many spaces but it is already bulging full so you may want to discuss the options with your contractor.

        I would say that if you are close to filling the new panel it may be worthwhile especially if there is a chance you may want to add a 220v circuit sometime in the future. Also if you are already being rewired I might consider adding another 20A circuit to bring you up to 4 the extra cost at this time would be minimal and provide some extra flexibilty.

        I have 4 20A plus a 15A. Chas is right that in "normal" operation you are usually only drawing signifcant power from 2 circuits e.g. one big power tool and a DC but there are other scenarios that may or may not fit your situation (now or in the future).

        I have all lower power items running off the 15A, chargers, radio, misc lights (plug in type), swamp cooler and refridgerator. None of these would adversely affect a 20A but they do add up and watch out for a fridge when the compressor kicks in....

        Tool wise it is usually two big ones at any one time but if you have a compressor running its ideal (not entirely neccessary) to plug it into a separate circuit as it could trip a circuit if it kicks in when running other tools.

        There are occasions where I need to run my shopvac and DC at the same time.

        Lastly you should consider if you ever have more than one person working in your shop. I dont often but it does happen so having spare "juice" really helps.
        Jon

        Phoenix AZ - It's a dry heat
        ________________________________

        We all make mistakes and I should know I've made enough of them
        techzibits.com

        Comment

        • LarryG
          The Full Monte
          • May 2004
          • 6693
          • Off The Back
          • Powermatic PM2000, BT3100-1

          #5
          Basically, what Larry, Chas, and Jon said.

          Oh ... uh ... oops ... what I mean is ...

          All kidding aside, I've been thinking about this some more, and having read Jon's thoughts, I think he nails it: the key factor is how close to full your new 200A panel will be. If you have ANY inkling that you might someday need more breaker spaces than it alone contains, that would be the best possible argument for turning the original panel into a subpanel for your shop. His suggestion to add another 20A circuit right now is good; and don't dismiss too quickly the possibility of your needing 240V power someday.

          Chas is correct in pointing out that there will be some additional cost, and it could be fairly significant depending on where the subpanel is located, how many new breakers you'd have to buy, and to what extent the existing circuits would have to be rerouted. OTOH, you'll never be able to get the work done as cheaply as you can right now, while the electrician is already on the job.

          (If it were me, I'd snag that sucker the instant it came out of the wall, and tuck it away somewhere for safekeeping. But then I have definite, albeit undated, plans to build a brand new, standalone shop building out in the backyard, someday.)
          Last edited by LarryG; 06-13-2008, 12:37 PM.
          Larry

          Comment

          • bdk5
            Forum Newbie
            • Mar 2004
            • 76
            • Chicago, IL, USA.

            #6
            Thanks--all good and helpful (and, strangely enough, consistent) comments. You all seem to have nailed my situation down. The subpanel would be located right next to the main panel. I don't know how big the 200 amp panel would be, so even though my 100 amp panel is full right now, there may be more space in the new panel. I've thought about the possible need to add a 220 circuit in the shop sometime in the future, so that is in the back of my mind. I should also add that, in addition to the 3 20 amp circuits in the shop right now, I also have a 15 amp circuit for some of the lights and one other outlet. So I don't feel the need to add any additional 20 amp circuits at the moment. Unless the contractor will through the subpanel labor in for free, I don't think it's worth doing right now. But I will be sure to hold onto the old panel for the future...

            Comment

            • LCHIEN
              Internet Fact Checker
              • Dec 2002
              • 20914
              • Katy, TX, USA.
              • BT3000 vintage 1999

              #7
              the only thing the subpanel will aid you in is cutting off all the shop circuits with one, possibly lockable breaker.

              Other than that it will cost you space and labor and some more parts. I can't imagine that a 200A panel won't have enough breaker space if you are upgrading from a 100A box.
              Loring in Katy, TX USA
              If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to treat all problems as if they were nails.
              BT3 FAQ - https://www.sawdustzone.org/forum/di...sked-questions

              Comment

              • Crash2510
                Senior Member
                • Feb 2006
                • 830
                • North Central Ohio

                #8
                what the others have said is pretty good advice, but if you are upgrading panels you are not necessarily upgrading the number of circuits. 200 amp panels start out with 30 and 42 circuits in a square d panel. adding the additional sub panel will cost you around 30-50 dollars for the breaker if you go with the full capacity, 10 for the wire and 20 for additional parts(ground bar kit, ridgid nipple, locknuts, bushings,screws, etc), plus labor. I would expect this to take no longer than an additional hour. Around here electricians charge around 50 dollars an hour so i would expect you to have an additional 150 to 200 dollars in the addition of the panel. This may be a good idea if you plan to sell in the future assuming the panel is in good shape.

                although it is not required it might not be a bad idea to have the main breaker in the old panel converted back to a lug only because it is something else that can go wrong.
                Phil In Ohio
                The basement woodworker

                Comment

                • JimD
                  Veteran Member
                  • Feb 2003
                  • 4187
                  • Lexington, SC.

                  #9
                  My shop is my everything shop. In other words, stuff that breaks gets fixed there in addition to woodworking. For fixing things, I wish I had a 220V circuit for a welder. Otherwise, I am fine with one 20A circuit for tools and one 15A for lights and the DC (it is a 1hp delta). A 220V is also required for a big compressor or table saw motor.

                  Jim

                  Comment

                  • bigangelman
                    Forum Newbie
                    • Nov 2006
                    • 32
                    • Northern Wisconsin
                    • BT3000

                    #10
                    You could get a 200 amp panel with more spaces in it if you were getting close to full. The sell your old 100 amp'er & breakers on craigslist / ebay you may be able to recoup some of the cost for the upgrade.

                    Tom

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