Cyclone Chip Barrel Doubles as Septic Tank?

[SARGE..g-47]

Morning..

I got a PM from Thom this morning....
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"stupid question

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In your reply about Uncle Cracker's BS upgrade, I see a picture of your cyclone with a long house from the bottom of the cyclone barrel ... why?

Inquiring minds wanna know"

Thom
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My reply was the cyclone chip barrel is also used with direct hook-up to the toilets upstairs and doubles as a septic tank. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
And then I told Thom that I would post some pics in a new thread to explain why and where that hose in the pic goes.

One of the major questions that is ask about cyclones when shopping for one is, "how long and how much trouble is it to take the larger chip collection barrel off and empty it". With the height of Cyclones, you have somewhat of a tight fit between floor and ceiling. This makes getting the chip collection barrel off the bottom of a cyclone somewhat of a minor challenge and PITA to say the least. Even with clearance, it is a hassle to dis-connect the lower hose that connects the chip barrel to the cone to empty the barrel.

Most cyclones have a blast gate on the smaller fine dust barrel that allows you to open and hook a shop vac to suction out the fine dust from that smaller barrel. There is not enough fine dust that a shop vac can't handle that.

With that thought in mind.. no Cyclone maker or guru has thought of any provision for a similar set up on the chip barrel. A shop vac won't handle it, so I guess the idea has gone over-looked? But.. "I had a dream" while sipping coffee and staring at the cyclone and the rest of my shop. Given the correct circumstance, it could be done the same as with the smaller dust bin.

I had just the circumstance on hand sitting 8 feet away that dedicately serves my router table and SCMS for dust collection.. so why not let it put in a little "over-time" and double duty on the occasion when the large chip barrel needs to be emptied so it never has to be dis-connected from the upper cyclone body?

Add a blast gate to the bottom of barrel.. quick connect of 4" hose.. power up.. bag.. tag.. and off to the nearest re-cycle compost bin outside the shop in under 2 minutes was the result of a few thoughful moments spent "thinking outside the box".

Pic 1.. the pic that created the question.. Pic 2.. hose as it it until the quick connect to cyclone and self-explanatory where it comes from and what it does.. Pic 3..hose in use on chip barrel to "get er done" and save the PITA.

Septic tank... nah! Chips be gone pronto... Ya betcha!

Regards...

[TheRic]

Sarge great idea!! Only problem is having a cyclone AND a DC.

I hope Thom hasn't already attached the hose to his septic tank!!

[SARGE..g-47]

Morning Ric...

Any plumbing inspectors show up at my door and the question will have been answered.. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

I'm outta here in a hurry before that can happen and traveling incognito for the rest of the week.

Regards...

[LinuxRandal]

Seems to me the septic tank idea means your either a prankster (fill flaming porch bags), or it's an admidtance, that your full of it. LOL

To bad you have to have another DC, If there was a way to turn your cyclone into a blower however (one tool)....

[SARGE..g-47]

Morning Linux...

"Seems to me the septic tank idea means your either a prankster (fill flaming porch bags), or it's an admidtance, that your full of it". LOL .. Linux
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Both.. and the list goes on....

"To bad you have to have another DC, If there was a way to turn your cyclone into a blower however (one tool)" .... Linux
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Not quite sure what you mean here?

The DC was there when I got the Cyclone. I tried to sell it, no takers. I found out that a DC or Shop Vac actually is more efficient with a router table or SCMS.. vertical sander.. spindle sander.. ect. The cyclone is just too much for those machines IMO.

The Cyclone is set up with a direct connect to the major chip makers (TS.. 20" planer.. 8" jointer.. 18" BS with a 6" hose direct to each machine and one machine at a time to eliminate a long run and a minimum of turns and absolutely no reductions at the end.

The idea of selling the DC got canned as it much more valuable than what I could have gotten from it I discovered. It was there and will stay. I just gave it more resposibility with using it to suck out the cyclone chip can.

Interesting you mentioned a blower... even with a good system I have put in place I use an electric leaf blower about every two hours in the shop. I open the two outer doors and put on a dust mask. Start at the back of the shop and blow it out moving forward. Turn on an over-head Jet air filter and go up for coffed. 30 minutes latter when all is settled.. back for more.

I worked 30 years with basically no dust collection. Only in the last 6 have I employed any methods to keep it down. If I knew then what I know now about fine dust... there would have been some attempt to combat dust long ago.

Hopefully someone just starting out will benefit from the experiences of some of us that were in the dark for a long time. And hopefully, they will not breath fine dust for 30 years as I did if they do heed the advice.

Regards...

[Thom2]

One of the major questions that is ask about cyclones when shopping for one is, "how long and how much trouble is it to take the larger chip collection barrel off and empty it". With the height of Cyclones, you have somewhat of a tight fit between floor and ceiling. This makes getting the chip collection barrel off the bottom of a cyclone somewhat of a minor challenge and PITA to say the least. Even with clearance, it is a hassle to dis-connect the lower hose that connects the chip barrel to the cone to empty the barrel.

Okay Sarge ... I've been mullin' this thing over for awhile now and I've got a few questions

1. Why do you have to disconnect the hose to empty the barrel? Won't the lid just hang there when you pull the barrel out?
2. Doesn't the trip through the DC sort of nullify the fine filtering of the cylcone filters?
3. Doesn't the trip through the DC sorta negate one of the primary purposes of a cyclone ... material not having to pass through the impeller?

If it works for you, that's great and I won't question what works in your shop. These are just some of the things that rattled through my wandering mind while I've been thinking about this thread.

(oh .. and that you ain't wrapped too tight ... Cyclone AND a DC .... not very tight at all ........ )

[SARGE..g-47]

[QUOTE=Thom2;282108]Okay Sarge ... I've been mullin' this thing over for awhile now and I've got a few questions

"Why do you have to disconnect the hose to empty the barrel? Won't the lid just hang there when you pull the barrel out".. Thom

(1) Shop ceiling 96"... Cyclone height 94" and locked to a support at that height.. Sleeve on bottom of cyclone cone that the 7" flex hose has to slide over and be clamped is aprrox. 3"-4". That means you have to compress the 7" flex hose upward after dis-connecting main band clamp on the chip barrel to slide the chip barrel out to empty. It has to clear the top rim of the chip barrel.

My question to you is have you ever compressed a 7" heavy gauge plastic flex hose re-enforced with extremely stiff spiral wire used as a built in ground? If you have.. you understand that it doesn't compress as easily as one might think and you have to struggle a bit. It is not just a simple matter of un-snapping the band and sliding it out. With most 8' shop ceiling as most of us this is an issue. If you have 10" or more.. it isn't.... period!

"Doesn't the trip through the DC sort of nullify the fine filtering of the cylcone filters"?... Thom

(2) The DC hose is only connected to the blast gate on the chip barrel when you want to empty the chip barrel. If that chip barrel gets too full, the action of the cyclone cfm reduces and the fine filters clog.. eliminating what they are supposed to do and that is filter the very fine dust that is harmful and drop it into the fine dust barrel in a different location from your large chip barrel.

The trip through the DC.. ? The DC is only connected to the large chip barrel and turned on to suck out large chips in the bottom of the cyclone chip barrel to keep it from getting too full when that becomes necessary. In my case done in lieu of dis-connectiing the chip barrel and removing it to avoid the PITA I and others that have a cyclone encounter with 8" ceilings.

A 1 HP DC does not have enough CFM to pull through a complete cyclone system all the way back to the fine dust barrel.. so I do not understand your statement of a trip through the DC nullifying the fine filtering of the cyclone filters. It has nothing to do with the fine filtering of the cyclone as it is an independent action that takes place at two completely separate times and have no relationship what-so-ever.

"Doesn't the trip through the DC sorta negate one of the primary purposes of a cyclone ... material not having to pass through the impeller"?.. Thom


(3)Agan... there is no direct relationship with the Cyclone and DC as what I do is two completely separate actions. The primary purpose of a Cyclone is to separate fine harmful dust and large chips and drop the fine dust in one location after it has been filtered and clean air returned to the shop. If the fliter clogs the air returned is not clean and full of the fine dust that harms you.

The large chip collector must be emptied often enough to keep the higher cfm required to pull from remote locations. Otherwise chips and fine dust settle in the pipe leading to the cyclone or the fine dust clogs the fiter as mentioned and the fine dust is returned to where it just came from.. the shop.

A main purose of a cyclone is NOT material having to pass through the impellor. Every swinging particle that goes through a cyclone to be separated and filtered MUST pass through the impellor. The impellor is the turbine fan blade that creates suction and flow and is located at the mouth of the Cyclone. In order to reach the main components of the Cyclone... it HAS to pass through it.

"(oh .. and that you ain't wrapped too tight ... Cyclone AND a DC .... not very tight at all "........ ) .... Thom

And we all have opinions, Thom. That is your opinion. Mine is that I didn't fall off a "turnip truck" yesterday.

And of course... we all are entitled to our opinions!

Have a good day...

[TheRic]

Sarge, why can't you just cut the 7" of flex hose down to what you need? Are there special ends on them??

Don't be to hard on Thom, he just upset he was almost done with the septic tank run when he found out it was a joke.

[Thom2]

(oh .. and that you ain't wrapped too tight ... Cyclone AND a DC .... not very tight at all ........ )

This line was STRICTLY meant in Jest and was not intended to be taken in the same context as the questions. A lot of people here would just like to have one or the other let alone both.

I apologize if it came across the wrong way, it was only intended as a ribbin'

And we all have opinions, Thom. That is your opinion. Mine is that I didn't fall off a "turnip truck" yesterday.

I never implied or have even remotely thought that you fell off a turnip truck yesterday or any other day

I felt the questions were legitimate and I was curious as to the reasoning behind the setup. I just couldn't understand the extra step in the process, but then I don't have a cyclone either.

[LCHIEN]

[quote=SARGE..g-47;282160]..."Doesn't the trip through the DC sorta negate one of the primary purposes of a cyclone ... material not having to pass through the impeller"?.. Thom


(3)Agan... there is no direct relationship with the Cyclone and DC as what I do is two completely separate actions. The primary purpose of a Cyclone is to separate fine harmful dust and large chips and drop the fine dust in one location after it has been filtered and clean air returned to the shop. If the fliter clogs the air returned is not clean and full of the fine dust that harms you.

The large chip collector must be emptied often enough to keep the higher cfm required to pull from remote locations. Otherwise chips and fine dust settle in the pipe leading to the cyclone or the fine dust clogs the fiter as mentioned and the fine dust is returned to where it just came from.. the shop.

A main purose of a cyclone is NOT material having to pass through the impellor. Every swinging particle that goes through a cyclone to be separated and filtered MUST pass through the impellor. The impellor is the turbine fan blade that creates suction and flow and is located at the mouth of the Cyclone. In order to reach the main components of the Cyclone... it HAS to pass through it.

[\quote]

In the cyclone below, the inlet is on the left and below the impellor unit. Material spirals downward, heavy chips falling out the bottom port and the fines going up the center , through the impellor and out the exit port at the top right.


This is typical of most cyclones I have seen and in this case only the fines see the impellor. So I don't understand John's assertion that every particle has to pass through the impellor.

As for Thom's question about the fines hitting the DC, this will not be a huge problem. The purpose of a cyclone is to separate materials - the small fines out the top and the bigger chips down to the bottom. There's some cut point inherent in the design of the cyclone, let's say hypothetically 99% of particles smaller than 50 microns are sent to the filter stack. And everything else ends up in the chip can. So only a few, 1%, of particles smaller than 50 micron are in the can.
When John uses the DC to suck the contents of the chip can out, it will contain predominately large particles bigger than 50 micron. So these are easily handled by the DC. Of All the fines entering the cyclone sized 1-50 microns, about 1% will end up in the chip can and thus eventually in the DC. If the DC has a filter that stops down to 5 microns, it will still capture a goodly part of the particulate left. If there's an even distribution of particles 1-50 micron, then a 5 micron filter will capture 90% of them. So, maybe 1/10th of 1% of the ultrafines under 50 microns may be recirculated into the shop... BUT another way of looking at it, 1% of the particles 1-5 micons will be recirculated.

[SARGE..g-47]

Morning Ric..

As to cutting down the hose to what I need, it is already cut down to what I need. The PS Tempest I have is stated as 92" and that is with about a 12" long flex hose in 7" diameter (very rigid with that very stiff grounding wire inside.. you actually have to get a set of large wire cutters to cut it).

The problem lies in the fact that with a full 12" hose connecting the cone to the chip collector, it would be about 101" inches tall (they don't tell you that part). So.. you either cut a hole in the ceiling to get the motor through, or cut the 12" flex from the cone to the collector to get it snuggly underneath the ceiling. You have to guess just where to cut. Too long and you can't compress it to get it attached. Too short and you have the barrel dangling underneath and when you turn 2 1/2 HP loose the barrel will lift from suction and move sideways.

Also.. the chip collector lid is recessed about 1 1/2". That is another 1 1/2" you have to try to compress that stiff flex (it doesn't flex much at 7" when you already have it partially compressed). It requires some muscle and a lot of fiddling to get the lid off and the barrel out. Then you have to go through the same procedure to get the chip barrel back in place. In my case I have those mats that butt up to it and you have to remove several sections around the base to get the extra 1/2" that take to slide it out.

When you secure the Cyclone up and attach to supports to allow for 2" clearance on the ceiling, you are confronted on getting everything underneath to mesh up in a set distance at that point. I wish that I had a 12" flex pipe connecting the cone to the chip can.. but I ended up with 7" because of the recessed lid. And you have to allow for enough hose to slide over the connectors on both the cone and can to get clamps on and secured with no chance of any leak.

Lets just say it can be an engineering challenge. The Cyclone folks don't disclose all or you might walk. But if you want the advantages that a cyclone can give (when I got a 20" planer and 8" jointer the little DC was grossly out-matched), you do what you have to do to make it fit in the space you have.

Kind of like having to crank an old style Harley Davidson before electric starters. You moan.. you groan.. you cuss.. you despise everything arounhd you. Until.... the moment it cranks and you become a kid on Xmas morning finding treasure under the tree!

Suuuuurrrrrrrreeeeeeee does sound sweet doesn't it? ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

Regards...

[SARGE..g-47]

Morning Thom...

After reading your explanation of the "too tight" line, I did indeed mis-understand what you were saying. I had never seen you come across as being sarcastic or critical in the short time I have been here. As a matter of fact, I highly respect your views and character.

But... I did mis-understand that statement so... let me be the one to apoligize for the stern response as it was made on assumption and I should have ask for clarification first as I often jest myself (as you know). I am beginning to think I am having some senior moments on occasion on the brink of 60 regardless of the fact that I would prefer not too.

The questions were very ligitimate and that's why I took time to answer them. It was the last line I mis-interpreted that soured my approach to those answers.

Again.... my error, not yours so an apology is not required on your part and I hope you accept one on my part.

Regards...

[SARGE..g-47]

Morning Loring...

And you are quite technically correc in the fact that that all particles don't go directly through the impellor. I am wrong in stating that. They come in the outlet below it and in a perfect world should just do what you stated. But that impellor base is open and if you ever take the cap off a cyclone you will see marks where larger chips have hit the impellor blades. It will also be caked with fine dust particles.

Again.. I was incorrect in stating that they Must travel through it. And you gave an excellent explanation of what happens once they do enter the Cyclone and why doing what I do is not a detriment to what the Cyclone is designed to do.

Every Cyclone I have seen has a blast gate in the fine dust bin to hook a shop vacuum too and clear the fine dust. If running a DC to clear the large chip bin would be a no-no, you would not see the manufacturer put a blast gate on the fine dust bin to suck it out with a shop vac. That includes the ones Biil Pentz has designed and sold and the fine dust is much more of an issue to lungs than the large chips by far.

And I totally agree that not all fine dust will be captured. You can add all the equipment under the sun to get it, and that includes adding extra hose to the major trouble spots on a machine but.... no addition or action you take will get 100% of the fine dust now or any time in the future IMO.

BTW.. I do run a 2 micron filter on the Penn State 1 HP DC. The majority of time I just roll it outside the door with the pipe going back to the stationary Cyclone before I empty the large chip bin. The door gets closed to the point of the top of the hose in summer.

I don't know if you can see the cat door in the left lower corner of my door, but the hose from DC to Cyclone gets routed through it in the winter with the door closed to conserve heat.

Again.. excellent explanation of WHY's.....

Regards...

[Jeffrey Schronce]

This is an interesting application. One of the biggest reason I went from DC to cyclone was I find emptying the barrel MUCH easier than taking plastic bags off and getting the darn plastic bag back on there with that metal band! Plus I vent fines outside so I don't have to worry about the bags or dust canisters that I would with DC.

There are similar applications in large industrial situations. You will often see an extra impeller at the bottom of a cyclone when they are emptying into a large container like a 18 wheeler trailer.

Edit: BTW, your system seems to be working a lot better than mine based upon the 6" of dust I wade through every day!

[SARGE..g-47]

Evening Jeff..

I took the felt bag off the bottom of the Penn 1 HP and replaced with their throw away plastics. The felt bag band was a PITA as you mentioned, but the plastic slide on and off very quickly. You can take it off and put a fresh plastic on in under a minute.

I have seen quite a few industrials that just housed the whole cyclone outside period. I almost did what you did and put the clone inside and vent out, but there were questions that arose from the manufacturer and quite a number of people over at KNOTS. Their argument was the cyclone would take large amout of air in and with the fines ducted to the outside, would not return air to possibly cause a problem leaving too much carbon monoxide from a gas heater in the winter months.

I don't know the truth to that? But... as a precaution I just left all inside. Some say yea.. some say nay scenario as two EE's getting together won't agree on a lot of fine details and that's a fact from what I have observed.

BTW.. I have 6" going direct to the big dust makers and they surround the cyclone in essence. I hook one at a time, so the longest run I have is about 14" max and there are few turns and absolutely no reduction as I added 6" ports on each of those Big 4 dustmakers. It really sucks you might say!

Regards...