French cleats question

[Anna]

What's the fix for the case when the wall is not plumb?

I know that if the cabinet is directly screwed to the wall, I can use shims to get it to be plumb. But if I'm using French cleats as my hanging system, then the cabinet is necessarily pulled towards the wall. Is there a solution to this at all or is it one of those things that I can't do anything about?

Thanks,
Anna

[Tom Slick]

would you need to shim it at the top or bottom of the cabinet?

[Anna]

would you need to shim it at the top or bottom of the cabinet?

Hey, Tom,

The bottom.

[LCHIEN]

you can use two cleats, top and bottom, Then shim beneath the cleat that needs to be pushed away from the wall. If you measure the cleat separation carefully, then both cleats will engage enough to pull them both close. But make sure you build the cleats strong enuf so that they can each carry the load individually.

[Popeye]

Are these the shop cabinets you've been working on? On shop cabinets I'd just tap shims up from the bottom till plumb and shoot a short nail in from the inside and snap off the exposed part of the shim. Done neatly that would work on kitchen cabinets too. Pat

[crokett]

Anna, My fix was a cleat at the top to hang the cabinet, then just attach a shim (no cleat) of appropriate thickness at the bottom. This is what I did on the cabinets in my shop.

[cabinetman]

Anna

I've never used two cleats. Most walls aren't straight. I recess the back 1" with a 1/4" back, gives me a 1/4" freeplay for the cabinet to pull to the wall. If the cleat is flush with the cabinet edge, it doesn't have a seating range. I usually make my cleats at least 3"-4" on the flat for each one before the 45, so I can get 2 screws vertically in the wall framing.

If you shim out the cleat from the wall, you are changing the shear forces at the point of the shim. At most if plumb or level is a question, use a spacer at the edge of the cabinet, to the wall.

There's been times that a cabinet was designed to carry a lot of weight, I would use a heavier back like 1/2". With a cleat height of say 4" you can get 2 screws on the ends through the cabinet, or pocket from the back, or use the cleat ends as a tenon, and mortise the cabinet ends, depending on what kind of cabinet you're doing. Also getting screws into the top of the cleat through the top of the cabinet is necessary.

I did a display cabinet in a sales trailer. The cabinet was about 8' wide and maybe 3'-4' high, like a shadowbox for posters and to display brochures. I used cleats on it because I wanted no screws showing. I mean to tell you that when it got tapped down on the cleat, it straightened out that wall of the trailer.



A THING OF BEAUTY IS A JOY FOREVER - John Keats

[Anna]

Loring, I used clear vertical grain Douglas fir for the cleats on the wall, so I'm hoping that's strong enough. I'm planning to use 3/4" plywood for the rest of it, though (wall and cabinet cleats). Now I'm wondering if I should get some more CVG from the store instead.

Popeye, yes, these are the same shop cabinets I'm working on. They're all hanging on the wall and, because I have no idea just how much strength the cleats really have, I decided to use two sets of cleats. The studs in the shed are pretty far apart (24" at center?), so I can't put in as many screws as I would like through the wall-attached cleats, which makes me worry about its strength.

David, how much weight would a single cleat be able to carry? I'm also getting ready to build the garage cabinets (it's almost spring!), and I'm using the shop cabinets as practice for that. The garage cabinets will hold considerably more weight.

Cabinetman, can you please tell me if what I'm doing is okay:

I have a bunch of 1/8" hardboard that I have not much use for, so I decided to use that as backing for the cabinets. I cut a groove on the sides, top and bottom to hold the hardboard, and the groove is situated about the depth of a 3/4" ply from the back.

I then cut two 6" to 8" pieces of plywood the width of the cabinet, and used pocket screws to attach them: one to the top and sides, the other to the bottom and sides. I used these to attach the cabinet cleats to. So the middle portion of the back is just hardboard, but the top and bottom are reinforced with plywood.

Is that strong enough? Or should I be using a solid board for the back? For the garage cabinets, I guess I'll have to use 1/2" solid piece of ply.

Unless this method I'm using now, which saves me some wood, would work as well.

Thanks for all the help

Anna

[cabinetman]

Anna

I usually don't just insert a back into a slot. For the material you want to use, I would have rabbeted the sides for the back 1-1/8", by 1/4". I would set the back, square the cabinet, and pin nail, or put brads through the 1/8" into the flat 1/4" of the rabbet. If you are using air power, make sure you don't shoot right through the 1/8".

Then I would take your 3/4" x 6" pieces and use them for the cleats. They would be against the 1/8" back and their ends would butt to the remaining 1/2" of the cabinet sides. Then, glue and screw them to the 1/4" flat part of the rabbet, on top the back.

If you use an 1/8" back, 3/4" braces, and 3/4" for cleats, you are using up 1- 5/8". The piece you want to use for the bottom as a brace would have to be high enough to accommodate the wall cleat.

I'm all for stapling or nailing the back in a rabbet, and then mount just the cleats. Is there a reason you are using pocket screws instead of going through the end into the cleat. Aren't these like shop cabinets, or garage type?



A THING OF BEAUTY IS A JOY FOREVER - John Keats

[Anna]

Anna

I usually don't just insert a back into a slot. For the material you want to use, I would have rabbeted the sides for the back 1-1/8", by 1/4". I would set the back, square the cabinet, and pin nail, or put brads through the 1/8" into the flat 1/4" of the rabbet. If you are using air power, make sure you don't shoot right through the 1/8".

Then I would take your 3/4" x 6" pieces and use them for the cleats. They would be against the 1/8" back and their ends would butt to the remaining 1/2" of the cabinet sides. Then, glue and screw them to the 1/4" flat part of the rabbet, on top the back.

If you use an 1/8" back, 3/4" braces, and 3/4" for cleats, you are using up 1- 5/8". The piece you want to use for the bottom as a brace would have to be high enough to accommodate the wall cleat.

I'm all for stapling or nailing the back in a rabbet, and then mount just the cleats. Is there a reason you are using pocket screws instead of going through the end into the cleat. Aren't these like shop cabinets, or garage type?

CM,

Why 1-1/8" rabbets? Also, since the wall studs are so far apart, I have to use continuous cleats that span all the studs instead of cutting them into shorter lengths for each cabinet.

I'm attaching some pictures to better illustrate what I'm talking about. I'd really appreciate any comments/suggestions you and others may have. My main concern right now is strength, since this is a dry run for our garage cabinets that are going to be deeper and probably wider and taller, too (the shop ones are 24" tall). Of course if I can make them look pretty, too, that would be great, since after the garage the next projects will be built-ins inside the house.

The first pic are two of the four cabinets hanging on the wall. The next pic is of a narrow cabinet after gluing it together, before putting in my brace. The last pic is the wider cabinet ready to get the cleats attached. Took some time off to send this post out.

Again, would love to hear any suggestions/critiques/comments. I don't have a teacher for this, so I'm sort of figuring things out on my own right now.

[cabinetman]

Anna

When I said 1-1/8 deep for a rabbet is to mount the 1/8" back to the rabbet and fasten. Then you add the 3/4" cleat, and fasten. And allow a 1/4" gap from the back of the cleat to the back edge of the cabinet. So, if you add 'em up you get 1-1/8". The 1/4" gap is to keep the two cleats from bottoming out.

When I suggest to fasten the back to the rabbet, it firms up the whole cabinet and allows you to square it before fastening it. When you said you were going to slide the 1/8" back in a groove, that would allow some movement in the cabinet, unless you were to glue it. I still prefer to square and then fasten, The one cleat at the top should be sufficient.

If I'm still not clear, I'll try to post a sketch. It'll have to be a free hand one, cause I haven't played with Sketchup yet.



A THING OF BEAUTY IS A JOY FOREVER - John Keats

[Anna]

Anna

When I said 1-1/8 deep for a rabbet is to mount the 1/8" back to the rabbet and fasten. Then you add the 3/4" cleat, and fasten. And allow a 1/4" gap from the back of the cleat to the back edge of the cabinet. So, if you add 'em up you get 1-1/8". The 1/4" gap is to keep the two cleats from bottoming out.

But if the cleat is sitting inside the rabbet, then it wouldn't reach the wall cleats at all...? Yeah, I'm confused.

[cabinetman]

Anna

It is sitting inside the rabbet. The rabbet goes in on the side 1-1/8" and is 1/4" deep, leaving 1/2" thick of cabinet wall 1-1/8" deep (towards the front). The 1/8" back sits on top of the 1/4" step, then what's left towards the rear is 1". Then add the 3/4" cleat to the back (it is the same width as the back), and then you have 1/4" from the cleat to the back edge of the side of the cabinet. Looking down to where the back is, there will be 1", from just where the back is to the back edge of the cabinet.

IOW, If you look at the back of the cabinet, you see the width of the cleat and back and on either side is 1/2" of cabinet end.

If this doesn't clear it up, let me know and I'll do a sketch and post it.



A THING OF BEAUTY IS A JOY FOREVER - John Keats