Is Shop Dust "Killing" Us ???

[Slik Geek]

I'm an environmental specialist with 30+ years of experience...
So very small particles get past the lungs' protective systems and remain in the lung forever.

Forever is a very long time. Did you really mean FOREVER? In a warm, moist, oxygen-supplied environment such as lung tissue, I have to believe that particles of biodegradable materials such as wood will be broken down over time and the water soluble portions, at least, would be absorbed into the blood stream.

(The majority of wood consists of cellulose and hemicellulose, both consisting of glucose and other sugars, which the body is adept at breaking down, right?)

Hasn't it been discovered that the lungs of ex-smokers eventually cleanse out a significant portion of the tar buildup?

[LarryG]

Hasn't it been discovered that the lungs of ex-smokers eventually cleanse out a significant portion of the tar buildup?

My surgical onc told me that after you've been quit for 20 years, it's essentially as if you never smoked.

Which I found an interesting comment, since my diagnosis came 19 yrs 6 mos, literally almost to the day, after I'd quit ...

[movnup]

Great feedback and insight everyone !!! I'm glad some other people had the same takeaway to Bill Pentz as I did as being somewhat alarmist / maybe individually sensitive. I firmly believe that no matter what you do in life, where you live, your career, etc there is always some measure of risk and that's what make's life fun and why we wholeheartedly pursue the things we do !!! How some people define fun can run the gamut and that is entirely their choice (as long as they don't kill me or my loved ones). Personally I am going to implement a few easy changes to my behavior after learning about this issue because I can at least minimize the risk of one thing I can somewhat control (shop dust). It will always be there but I'm not going to stop woodworking because trying to eliminate it will always be in direct conflict of me trying to create more !!!

Here's my own personal plan of action:

1) Someday I might buy the cyclone d/c but currently I don't have the room, money, electrical requirements or the feeling as a hobbyist that I will be killed by this in the near term. It's a longer term goal ....
2) The drill press and shop vac is out of the picture for now ... I'm buying a D/C, throw out the stock bag, get a felt one, and hook up each new piece of stationary gear to it as my skill increases and make it part of the purchase price budgeted.
3) Install a new bathroom style fan as Ed Morgano of Clear Vue Cyclones stated as it creates a negative air pressure in the shop and when you open an door the dust will stay in the room and not be drawn into the house.
4) Stay away from mdf ... I never liked it anyways so that's pretty easy.
5) Buy and use the AO safety respirator as it's only $14 bucks. How I keep it on after the dust is created / settled will be a challenge but I'll try ....
6) Save up for an air exchanger and put some upgraded filters in it.
7) Sweep up .....blow off the gear and shop tools w/ compressed air when finished for the day ....... use the leaf blower to get it outside.

The whole rationale for the start of this is that in being a parent my perspective really changed as I always felt what personal risks I took (double black runs in skiing, slalom water skiing where you makes the cuts at 32 mph and probably over 45 mph across the wake, dirt bikes where I've been 30 feet off the ground w/ jumps, etc) only impacted me and that isn't the case anymore. Now I'm actively pursuing a hobby where something very sharp is spinning a few feet from my face at 4500 - 25,000 rpm. I never imagined the stuff you couldn't see would be an issue or a focus of any of my time so I figure the more I ask, the more I learn, and the infinite patience of people out there like on this forum willing to talk about things just maybe it might make allow me to be around just a little longer to contine my lifelong most important project of being a better parent.

I greatly appreciate the time people spent and value of their advice / experiences responding to this topic and many others I have posted.

[Anna]

Forever is a very long time. Did you really mean FOREVER? In a warm, moist, oxygen-supplied environment such as lung tissue, I have to believe that particles of biodegradable materials such as wood will be broken down over time and the water soluble portions, at least, would be absorbed into the blood stream.

(The majority of wood consists of cellulose and hemicellulose, both consisting of glucose and other sugars, which the body is adept at breaking down, right?)

Ever hear of roughage?

Seriously, though, it takes a lot to break down cellulose. You can go enzymatic, which is what ruminants do courtesy of their stomach flora, or you can go the high temp/acid or caustic bath route, which is what used to be done to make paper (don't know the current state of technology). Wood is not only made of cellulose either. There's a high proportion of lignin in there, which is very tough to digest (trying to remember things from high school science project now).

I'm not sure how long wood particles, or other microparticles can stay inside the body, but I wouldn't bet on the human body being able to process them efficiently. Cows need several stomachs loaded with cellulose-breaking microbes, and even then it takes more than 24 hours for the digestion to occur.

[ssmith1627]

The more I read the posts you guys are making and Bill's site, the more I do want to just move my HF DC outside. Let it vent out there and be done with it. I can build a little enclosure for it to protect it from the elements. I have a window right there and I can pass a 5" duct through and seal the rest of it up. If that makes my shop cold in the winter from blowing the warmer air outside, so be it. I can dress warmer -- I was sweating out there last night anyway.

Steve

[IBBugsy]

Forever is a very long time.

Good catch! I stand corrected.

Given a lot of time and something degradable or water/blood soluble, the lungs will eventually clean this material. There may be other mechanisms, too, that doctors may know about. It's not something I would rely upon unless you're already down this path (i.e. you're a smoker and want to stop).

I don't think about this much since I don't get to take credit for this as I negotiate allowable emissions from the factories I deal with. A particle is a particle in the way I have to deal with it, unless it's one of the "special compounds", like asbestos, lead, etc.

Currently, factories need to "watch" or keep track of the amount of particles they emit into the outside air (not indoor air) that are below 10 microns and 2.5 microns. EPA and States are interested in controlling particles in this size range. Having a 1 micron bag on the DC I got from Jeff sounded good to me.

[Sid]

Carbon monoxide danger

The more I read the posts you guys are making and Bill's site, the more I do want to just move my HF DC outside. Let it vent out there and be done with it. I can build a little enclosure for it to protect it from the elements. I have a window right there and I can pass a 5" duct through and seal the rest of it up. If that makes my shop cold in the winter from blowing the warmer air outside, so be it. I can dress warmer -- I was sweating out there last night anyway.

Steve

If your heat is supplied by a vented furnace, and you force a large flow of air outside, you could reverse the flow in your furnace vent and suck carbon monoxide into your shop (house?). That could result in your being very cold!

Sid

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Why aren't more folks using powered respirators? It seems that a powered respirator such as the Triton or Trend seems to eleminate all issues being discussed (except tracking dust inside a living area which should be easy to resolve).

[JSCOOK]

Why aren't more folks using powered respirators? It seems that a powered respirator such as the Triton or Trend seems to eleminate all issues being discussed (except tracking dust inside a living area which should be easy to resolve).

Definitely I agree about the respirators ... and I wear something when required ... but they only protect those who are wearing it, not the rest of your family.

The big problem is for those of us with the shop either in basement, or a garage/building attached directly to the house via a door (which is my case) the dust looming in the shop/room ultimately always makes it's way into the house every time the door is opened ... in which containment at the source is key IMO.

If your shop is detached from the reat of house, it's not quite the same problem ...

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Definitely I agree about the respirators ... and I wear something when required ... but they only protect those who are wearing it, not the rest of your family.

The big problem is for those of us with the shop either in basement, or a garage/building attached directly to the house via a door (which is my case) the dust looming in the shop/room ultimately always makes it's way into the house every time the door is opened ... in which containment at the source is key IMO.

If your shop is detached from the reat of house, it's not quite the same problem ...

I see the major problems presented in shop basements. With attached garages why not just create a "decontaminant room".

[JSCOOK]

I see the major problems presented in shop basements. With attached garages why not just create a "decontaminant room".

Nice Idea ... but try explainin that to the wife (she alreay may think we're crazy)

It simply isn't an option in my case at the moment ... room size, building layout, other functions that the room serves (garage in my case), would make it impossible to create a "decontaminant room" ... but makes for a good case for buying that house out in the country with the BIG shop.

She has already told me we can't buy a place were the shop/garage is bigger than the house ... otherwise we'll never be able to move again ... I don't see the problem with not moving again

[ssmith1627]

My shop isn't connected to the heating / air -- it's the garage so it's sealed from the rest of the house with an exterior type door. Plus my house is all electric so there's no carbon monoxide to worry about anyway.

As the other said above -- the respirator sounds like a good idea when you're creating a lot of dust. The problem is this fine stuff stays in the air in a closed environment like a small shop. It's not going away. People don't generally wear that respirator any time out there plus what happens when someone else like your wife or child walks through that space to get outside or to the deck. They're exposed to it and some of it travels inside at that point as well.

I really think you have to get rid of the dust by venting ourside or with really good filtering. And the dust needs to be captured at the source before it's allowed to escape the area of the tool and float around the room. The hard part is what is required to really collect it effectively -- which is what I'm finding out now.

Still trying to decide on a plan but I don't have $900 to spend on a cyclone right now either.....

Steve

[wardprobst]

Why aren't more folks using powered respirators? It seems that a powered respirator such as the Triton or Trend seems to eleminate all issues being discussed (except tracking dust inside a living area which should be easy to resolve).

I wear the Trend Airshield a lot myself but also use dust collection and air filters, figure it's cheaper than a trip to the doctor or hospital. No offense intended to the fine medical folks on the forum!
DP

[Jeffrey Schronce]

I forgot to throw down my system. I have a 3hp, 14" propeller cyclone system. It is vented outside with no air return into the shop. My shop is unheated and not air conditioned. My shop is detached and I built my house in middle of a 100+ acre farm, so zero neighbors in sight! I have 3 Bosch ROSs with vac attachment that runs to Ridgid shop vac with HEPA 99% filter. I have a 24" x 24" free standing down draft table, as well as a larger overhead Delta Air Cleaner.
My actual dust practices include 100% utilization of cyclone for routing, TS, SCMS, dual drum sander (still a mess though), jointer and planer. I use the downdraft table 90% of the time as the ROSs are sitting on it. I use the shop vac hookup to the sanders about 80% of the time (biggest downfall given fines created in this operation though the downdraft is doing a good job in general), about 20% for handheld routing (I am really tyring to improve that) and about 0% for biscuit slot cutting. When routing I will typically wear a pretty decent dust respirator, non-powered. I am finding myself using it more and more since I am becoming accustomed to having a mask on my face. I was recently diagnosed with severe sleep apnea and have been wearing a face mask at nights hooked to a CPAP machine, so I am getting used to the mask. I use a higher end mask for high VOC finishing. One thing I do is keep air really moving in my shop during the spring, summer and fall. My shop is a former detached garage so I have 2 car door that I keep open, windows with exhaust fans and the exterior vented DC. I think the cyclone and the amount of air moved by the fans contributes much more to overall dust control than pretty much anything else. The gail force breeze also keeps me cool in the warmer months!
I suffer from pretty bad nasal allergies. WW makes it worse, certainly affecting nasal allergies and possibly lung capacity. I found out the hard way that I am *highly* allergic to lacewood/fish tail oak, though other woods do not seem to impact an allergic reaction, rather they tend to make my sinus issues worse. My concerns are primarily for allergies/sinus rather than cancer from wood dust.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

I wear the Trend Airshield a lot myself but also use dust collection and air filters, figure it's cheaper than a trip to the doctor or hospital. No offense intended to the fine medical folks on the forum!
DP

What is the circulation like inside the Trend Airshield? Does the forced air move pretty well. I am a very sweaty, fat guy and I worry about tons of sweat coming into my eyes when wearing the full face shields.