Is Shop Dust "Killing" Us ???

[movnup]

I posted a question last week as to hooking up a shop vac to the BT and other stationary tools as a start to dust collection. There was a great response as always and the overall net answer from the forum was to save my money and install a 4" dust collection system.

I then started doing research on D/C's by looking at many other woodworking forums and also googled for tool reviews / shop piping / layout ideas. A name came up consistently (Bill Penz) with regards to the health hazards of very small particles of dust that a "normal" bag style d/c in conjunction with an overhead air circulation system will never capture and you "have" to use a cyclone D/C. I quote from his homepage (http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Index.cfmis) as follows:

"Few realize that the medical research is clear there is no safe level of wood dust exposure. Every wood dust exposure causes some measurable loss of respiratory function. Exposure over time creates permanent damage and increases risk of cancer "

It appears on the surface that he is a hobbyist like the majority of us and due to health reasons was forced to research, test, and then build a better mousetrap or quit woodworking completely. There are a number of woodworkers who subsequently built his design, one who commercialized it (Ed Morgano of Clear Vue Cylones.com) and he also he has quite a bit of unbaised medical research to back him up. He has also consulted with the major manufactures like Grizzley, Delta, etc. so there is five or more years he has been at this task. I almost always view information like this very much at face value but some of the medical statistics kept me up last night:

1) One out of 14 professional woodworkers are forced to retire early due to dust issues
2) Professionals are governed by OSHA rules so this stat is after having professional D/C systems in their shop in contrast to hobbyists who have nothing close machinery wise that would meet minimum air use quality standards that the Feds require.
3) These small particles of dust are not only a hazard to those working in the shop but is brought into the house airborn or on our clothes and is affecting our families also (if I hurt myself that's my decision / fault but this one really got me wrapped around the axle) !!!

Before anyone responds to this there is A LOT of controversy on the web from the manufacturers and also woodworkers (professional and hobbyist), so I want to be very very clear that I am not posting this to stir things up from any personal motivation except to get facts and then make an informed educated decision. I am a VP of Marketing by trade so half of my job is market research and I know first hand how "facts" and "stats" can be twisted to state a viewpoint that supports a certain position (so I am naturally skeptical with a prove it to me attitude) when someone is trying to convince me that "the sky is falling". I would encourage all that read this to follow a similar research path I took (from multiple angles of approach / multiple viewpoints) and see if you end up with a similar takeaway to the debate that I encountered.

The net of this is that I ripped / crosscut a lot of wood this weekend and my nose is still plugged up, my little girl was inside playing yesterday and she is now sniffling, and my wifes yearly spring and fall allergies are giving her static and there's snow on the ground in Seattle.

We talk a lot about bargain alerts, shop layouts, techniques, ect on this site and many similar ones but has this become the new tool that we all need to have in order to enjoy our hobby, keep our families safe, and be around to enjoy the fruits of our labor in the future???

[MilDoc]

I think most of us have looked at Pentz's site and believe what he says, especially if you have any allergies to wood!

[cgallery]

Interesting topic. I've gotten into heated discussions on other boards about the real ramifications of breathing wood dust. Many refuse to acknowledge any problem whatsoever.

I do believe that there is really no safe exposure level.

HOWEVER, unless you're living in a clean room, you're breathing lots of stuff that is really just as harmful. Running a household vac on the carpeting contaminates the air. Changing the sheets on the bed contaminates the air. Sweeping up the garage, too.

Look at guys like James Krenov, and Ian Kirby. They've been doing it (woodworking, that is) for decades with seemingly no ill effects.

I think we each handle the exposure differently. If you or family members are real sensitive (and it sounds like you are), you'll need the heavy equipment.

Oh, and the type of wood is especially important. Some woods are just downright toxic.

[Ed62]

This is a good topic that we probably don't talk about enough. Before I tried the AO Safety Coolmax, I frequently didn't wear any protection at all because of comfort/problems with glasses. And I don't have DC, except for a shop vac hooked up to the tools. Several times it bothered me long after the shop time was over. I think the reason we don't pay enough attention to breathing dust is that, like hearing protection, you can't see the ill effects by looking at someone.

Ed

[LCHIEN]

I posted my comments recently:

http://www.bt3central.com/showthread...ighlight=pentz

I guess it all depends on how sensitive you are.

[jackellis]

I was sick with a cold and cough for a month that was probably aggravated by wood dust.

I don't have the space for a DC so I use shop vacs and a) just bought a Shark Guard to get better dust collection from my TS, b) avoid using MDF because it produces so much dust, c) spend a lot more time cleaning up than machining (a la Kirby) so I minimize the amount of dust to begin with and avoid stirring it up, d) just bought a respirator (AO Coolmax).

Hopefully I'll have a dedicated shop space soon. It will have provision for a DC, air cleaner, and anything else I can add to better control the dust.

[Curly Qsawn]

Almost any hobby can have health risks. Hunters get shot, racers get burned, golfers can be struck by lightening. One must take the proper precautions based on their own risk aversion. The two things that a huge cyclone doesn't seem to help much is routing and sanding, unless you have some huge downdraft table. Probably won't see one in my weekend hobby room! Ever since I became interested in woodworking, I've tried to learn as much as possible on dust collection. I'm a long way from being an expert, but you don't have to be when you don't have the money or electrical capacity to run a big cyclone. I limit my exposure by working in small doses, try to be faithful to wearing my dust mask and work outside when I can, especially to do sanding or routing. I have also put off buying the big machines until I know I will be able to really use them, both from a health perspective and from a talent perspective.

[onedash]

I dont disagree that sawdust is bad for you. I wonder if its any worse than all the other polution around. Like running along or near a road. Breathing all those exhaust fumes while your breathing heavy for 30 or more minutes. Being in a bar or club full of smokers, or how about all the pollen in the spring? When it can turn cars yellow you know its going in your lungs too.
I think cancer is pretty much determined at birth. Why else whould some one who smokes 50 years not get lung cancer and someone who never smoked does get it??
I just think if you are going to get it some things will speed it up.
Does sawdust make me run slower??? I dont know. maybe.

I do spend about $40 every 2-3 months on two filters for my furnace and it probably collects more dust than my dust collector in the shop.
When I buy a house someday I am thinking I will put the DC in a small room that breaths back into the shop through several of those good filters. kinda double scrub. And if there is room for a finishing room it would also be like that but it would draw the air though the filters to try and keep it dust free.

[Slik Geek]

...make an informed educated decision.
The net of this is that I ripped / crosscut a lot of wood this weekend and my nose is still plugged up, my little girl was inside playing yesterday and she is now sniffling, and my wifes yearly spring and fall allergies are giving her static and there's snow on the ground in Seattle.

Those who have seen a few of my posts already know that this topic is a passion for me. The reason is simple: I came very close to having to liquidate my woodworking tools as a result of a wood dust allergy. I had a solid year of low-grade flu symptoms. Not a fun time. I don't want anyone else to be uninformed like I was. I'm happy to report that I can make sawdust again, and my allergy has retreated significantly.

Once my allergy was well advanced, just entering my basement (where the workshop was) would cause the symptoms to start (in a matter of minutes). Unfortunately, in my sensitized state, I could get the symptoms going in minutes, but it took hours, and at the peak, days to completely subside.

Not everyone has the same propensity for dust allergies. Thus, I don't expect everyone to take the same precautions that I have. I just want folks to know what to look for so they can protect themselves.

I should note that I've never knowingly had any seasonal allergies, so lack of previous allergy problems isn't necessarily an indication of one's susceptibility. I also wasn't working with woods that are particularly known for their danger: red oak, spruce/pine/fir.

Here is the symptoms I experienced, roughly in the progression that I moved through as my allergy progressed:
Runny nose, sore throat, hacking cough, like I was clearing fluid out of my lungs after a cold. A chest rash right after wood working. (I think this was a serious warning indication). Climbing stairs would cause me to breathe harder than I should, and my heart would be beating heavily, like I was at a high altitude. A general malaise, like I was fighting off a cold or the flu, resulting in a feeling that my energy level was lower than normal.

My woodworking environment consisted of a shop vacuum with a stock filter (which caught the large dust particles, but sprayed the finest, likely the most harmful particles into the air). I worked in a small, closed room, with no outside air ventilation available. I often wore a "nuisance" dust mask, thinking that I was "protecting" myself from that dust that seemed to give me a runny nose.

Here's how I recovered. Note that during my initial "recovery", I significantly reduced my woodworking activity, reducing dust exposure. I was so sensitized that I was afraid to get near sawdust.

I purchased a real dust collector. It came with a cloth bag type of filter. I threw that bag in the trash and ordered an oversized singed-felt dust collection bag. I purchased a room air filtration system. I began wearing "real" dust masks, with at least NIOSH N95 protection. And I always wore the mask during dust making operations and hours afterwards. Prior to starting my day in the shop, I would snort nasal spray to insure that my natural dust filtering system (the nose) was working at its best.

It took a number of months, (actually a couple years), but I'm much less sensitive now.

Yes, wood dust is a hazard. So is electricity, natural gas, coal, gasoline, solvents in finishing chemicals, adhesives, power tools, hand tools, etc. We just have to be informed of the potential hazards and careful about how and when we protect ourselves.

[JSCOOK]

Simple answer to your question: YES!

I think ED62 nailed it when he stated:
"I think the reason we don't pay enough attention to breathing dust is that, like hearing protection, you can't see the ill effects by looking at someone."

It's our plain ignorance to things we can't see immediate effects of, which makes us think we're safe from any harm ... just look at the mess we've created with chemical pollution and emissions ... it's taken years before we realized that it was "killing us" and more years to change our habits and lifestyles ... think I'm over reacting, just look where we are now with "asbestos" and the health mess our so-called safe exposure has created ... so why do we as humans insist on carrying on in our ignorance when someone points out where we can make changes to improve our quality of life or those around us???

I've read Bill Pentz's website several times now, and from other information that I've read, IMHO have to agree without a doubt that there is definately something to his claims about the hazzards of certain fine dust.
This year I lost my FIL in his 60's to cancer which is believe to have been caused by his automotive related plant which he worked in as a machinist ... while it wasn't wood dust he was exposed to, the chemicals and air pollution was deemed "acceptable" for so many years before changes to the workplace environment were made ... so what makes us think the same won't hold true for us WW down the road when it may be too late? ...

My only hope this that we are smart enough to take the side of caution and do what is possible to either eliminate or atleast drastically reduce the risk of exposure ... I know that I've thought hard about what I've been exposed to and breathed in without even thinking about it in the past, and it's got me concerned to say the least ... and only pray that our past ignorance hasn't done too much damage to any of us.

This has fuelled my recent decision to purchase a DC unit this weekend which I believe should be able to meet or atleast come close to Bill's recommendations for what I do (to go along with my dust mask I've been using) ... instead of the drill press I've longed after, which nowcwill have to wait longer.

I'll stop ranting and step off the soap box now ... just my 2 cents worth.

[cabinetman]

Part of the answer to that question is definitely "it's an individual thing". Just as some people who smoke get lung cancer at a young age and then you'll see a 90 year old who smokes 3 packs a day and looks fine.

As for me, being in the environment of everything from dust to solvents on a daily basis on an average of 6 days a week, all day long, for over 35 years, the results carry definite exposure problems. I realize I'm an extreme exposure example. Not only am I referring to dust, but solvents too. Either breathing the vapors, or direct contact with the skin, has taken its toll on many levels.

In the beginning dust collection was more of a vanity affair. It was like "real men don't do it" mentality. If I had to do it over, I would have the best I could afford or finance it, like buying a car. Using only waterbased products would also be high on the list.

The list of problems I incurred include carpel tunnel syndrome on both hands (had the surgery)(was about 10 years too late), nerve damage to both hands, loss of feeling, tendonitis in both hands, bladder cancer (had surgery), respiratory problems, and hearing loss.

I did install a very large cyclone system with an outdoor hopper, as soon as I became aware of the problem, but I was well on my way by then. Exposure to solvents like lacquer thinner, MS, contact cement, paints, which included many which have trace amounts of arsenic, aren't especially noticeable after a while. I could be involved in a procedure and someone would walk in and pretty much pass out, while I didn't really notice how strong the vapors were.

So, my take on the subject is to do as much as you can to protect yourself. As for sanding dust and masks/respirators, they are better than nothing and the fine dust will linger in the air for a while. It's hard to keep the mask on long after your sanding is done. Air transfer/displacement works good too if you can use fans to evacuate shop air away from your workspace.



A THING OF BEAUTY IS A JOY FOREVER - John Keats

[BigguyZ]

I work in an enclosed basement workshop. I wear a dust mask for plywood and turning (doesn't work very well, I'm looking at other alternatives), and an AO safety respirator for MDF work. I can definitely be better as far as collecting dust during a cutting operation. I'm kind of waiting to build my saw station, which will allow me to build DC for my contracor's saw into it. Once that's completed, I also plan on building Bill Pentz's Cyclone vacuum. I already have the sheet metal, I just need to take the time to build the sucker. I think after that's completed, I'll need to do some more work to get dust collection for my other tools. Then, I feel confident that I'll be able to handle most of the dust in my shop, and use a mask/ respirator for the rest.

[LarryG]

A lot of you know that I was diagnosed with throat cancer a bit less than four years ago. One inescapable fact about my cancer is that I'll never know, for sure, what caused it. But I do know what some of the possible causes of my particular flavor of cancer were, and I wonder

... was it that I smoked cigarettes for 12 years?

... was it that I live in an area with high radon gas concentrations and higher-than-average cancer rates?

... was it genetics, diet, bad luck?

... or was it that I breathed a lot of sawdust from marine plywood, and a lot of fumes from urea-formaldehyde resin glue, during the many years I spent working in my dad's shop as a kid?

Like I said, I'll never know, but I think about that last one a lot. (And for the record: I don't blame my dad for his possible role. He didn't know about the dangers. No one knew about the dangers, back then.)

A lot of people think Bill Pentz is an alarmist, that he has unusually severe respiratory problems that most people will never experience. And that might well be true. The problem with this line of thinking is its inherent assumption that the bad stuff is always going to happen to The Other Guy.

But hey, guess what? Sometimes it happens to you.

[cabinetman]

A lot of people think Bill Pentz is an alarmist, that he has unusually severe respiratory problems that most people will never experience. And that might well be true. The problem with this line of thinking is its inherent assumption that the bad stuff is always going to happen to The Other Guy.

But hey, guess what? Sometimes it happens to you.

This is exactly the point. The stories told here aren't to scare anyone away from doing what they want. Life and whatever it has to enjoy should be coveted. The words about all the possibilities of dangers should be taken to mean that you should be aware of the dangers, and take whatever precautions you feel necessary.



A THING OF BEAUTY IS A JOY FOREVER - John Keats

[IBBugsy]

Well, thought I'd add a little to this....

I'm an environmental specialist with 30+ years of experience. One thing that is NOT disputed by industry, EPA, health professionals - very small particles are not good for your lungs. What the particles are made of can make things even worse (like asbestos, coal dust) but totally inert small particles are still bad. The lungs have a system of hairs and mucus to remove traped particles (like your nose does) but it does not extend down into the smallest passageways. So very small particles get past the lungs' protective systems and remain in the lung forever.

As others have said, any single individual's response can not be predicted with certainty. We can only go by "statistics" developed from a large group of people. The same dose of dust can have no effect on one person and put another in a hospital. That's just life.

I'm an occassional weekend garage junky and don't make anything (at least so far) very large so dust making has been minimal by most standards. However, seeing how the little dust I do generate got around to everything in my garage led me to get a HF dust collector with a 1 micron bag (compliments of Jeff S.). I also use a simple fiber dust mask when making dust. That's what makes me "comfortable". If I was a woodworking professional and made wood dust all day long in a shop, I'd have a MAJOR dust collection system and personal protective equipment.

As other's have said above, it's an individual decision. However, if you start to have health symptoms, talk to your doctor and mention your level of woodworking. It can help him make an accurate diagnosis.