Cyclone Dust Control Systems ala B. Pentz

[Woodboy]

I am looking to create a basement shop in an unfinished walkout basement. Proposed dimensions will be around 15 feet by 28 feet (may include a little storage) and the ceiling height is 9 feet. My plan is to have wide access doors. I have an “engineered” suspended wood floor with void space that will allow for under floor duct runs off a main line. My tentative plan is to install a dust control system in one corner and box it into a closet to minimize the noise.

Now my question – I’ve researched the 1 hp to 2 hp traditional single stage dust control systems and am concerned that even with 6 inch ducting and blast gates, I will be under powered from a cfm perspective. Cyclones appeal to me and I think I have the head room – has anyone out there had any experience with the system made by Bill Pentz, or any other of the small cyclones?

[LCHIEN]

I am looking to create a basement shop in an unfinished walkout basement. Proposed dimensions will be around 15 feet by 28 feet (may include a little storage) and the ceiling height is 9 feet. My plan is to have wide access doors. I have an “engineered” suspended wood floor with void space that will allow for under floor duct runs off a main line. My tentative plan is to install a dust control system in one corner and box it into a closet to minimize the noise.

Now my question – I’ve researched the 1 hp to 2 hp traditional single stage dust control systems and am concerned that even with 6 inch ducting and blast gates, I will be under powered from a cfm perspective. Cyclones appeal to me and I think I have the head room – has anyone out there had any experience with the system made by Bill Pentz, or any other of the small cyclones?

Bill Pentz's site is famous and certainly the most complete site out there.
As to whether he is totally alarmist or entirely reasoanble is a question that is debated, I think, by many people.

You could certainly go all out a build a system according to Bill P's guidelines, whether that is overkill or not is a good question. Whether he's got you thinking a modest system is underpowered is another good question. I honestly don't know the answers. And I'm not 100% sure about how to find out.

Perhaps one way is to start with a modest system (given how much you can spend on the full-blown system) and see how it fulfils your needs - if not then upgrade.

[ExYankee]

I like the idea of the false floor, its’s used in big computer rooms to move cooling air and wiring, plus the floor will be easier on the feet than concrete. Just build it sturdy enough to move your mobile mounted equipment if you have any. Regarding your enclosed closet for the DC system consider that 1100 CFM INTO the DC means 1100 CFM OUT OF as well back thru the filters and you will need to provide a return air path to the workshop. I am still building mine with that idea and will eventually enclose it with panels made from 2” thick HEPA filters I can get recycled from work. Unless you live in Carmel CA and have perfect weather you can’t vent it outside as well because then 1100 CFM of make up air is going to want to come back in from outside bringing the heat or cold with it.

I made a few mistake in tool placement, I put the planer at the end of the longest run and my HF 2HP is not up to the task of moving the big chips all that distance. So I relocated it and now used a direct 8’ line to it. My rule of thumb is “bigger chunks/shorter run” so The dust from my miter saw is less of a load and my drum sander less yet and so they work father away. The planer, wood lathe and jointer I have closest.

Bear in mind, no matter how much you engineer it ...SOMETHING will need revision after you are done.

[emsmedic]

I'm also transforming an unfinished basement into a shop and actually got the blessing from my wife to purchase a central dust collector. Admittedly, I haven't looked at Bill's website yet, but I'm rather intruiged by a Grizzly 2HP cyclone I found online. It has a lot of nice features and seems to be reasonably priced.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/cate...spx?key=570010

[ssmith1627]

I'm still exploring all these options as well and haven't decided what path to take. I have 4" S&D ducting right now to my HF 2HP DC. As was said above, it's not meeting the needs of the bigger tools at the end of the runs -- planer specifically. So I have to increase the size of the ducting, re-arrange the shop, replace the HF DC, or some combination of those things.

Going back to Bill Pentz and Clear Vue Cyclones, they have their 5HP cyclone on sale for $995.

http://clearvuecyclones.com/Order_Page.htm

I certainly can't take that leap today, I don't have another $1000 to spend right now. But that may be the way to go for those who can afford it.

Another option is to try to build it yourself or piece it together. You can get a 3HP motor from HF for $99.

Lots of options. Sorting it all out is the challenge !

Steve

[Jeffrey Schronce]

I'm also transforming an unfinished basement into a shop and actually got the blessing from my wife to purchase a central dust collector. Admittedly, I haven't looked at Bill's website yet, but I'm rather intruiged by a Grizzly 2HP cyclone I found online. It has a lot of nice features and seems to be reasonably priced.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/cate...spx?key=570010

The G0440 is an excellent value IMHO. 7" intake hole, 14.5" steel impeller, includes drum, excellent filtration. This would have definately been my choice if I had not found a great deal at Wilke when they were closing out one of the Bridgewood models.

[Coolmeadow Creations]

I've got a Clear Vue. Just starting to use it, but it seems to work great. Remember, the 995.00 price (a great price for a 5hp cyclone) will still need some other items to go with it. I spent about 300.00 for PVC 6" pipe and fittings. My runs are pretty short. 13' main run, 1 12' side run, another 5' side run, and 3 7' drops. I've live in an unincorporated area and my shop is not heated or air conditioned, so I'm venting outside and saving the 160.00 or so for the filters, at least for now. There are other systems out there, but for me, the CV offered the best bang for the buck in a cyclone. I've heard that some Lowes are closing out their Delta single stage collectors at an amazing price. If that's the way you choose to go, it should be a good unit. Jim.

[Bulkley]

Reviving an old thread rather than starting a new one.

There is little doubt that Bill Pentz has the best and last word on dust collection. Unfortunately, and Bill admits it on his site, that many of us have limitations that make an ideal system impossible. My shop is in the basement of a very old house with low joists which barely clear my head; thus a tall cyclone is out of the question. I am restricted to 110 volts. There is no way that I'm going to punch a hole through the two foot thick stone walls. We don't expect to live here more than another year or two, so a major investment at this time and in this house is not realistic.

Now, let's get practical. I have a one hp dust collector which looked like a good idea when I got it five years ago but is really insufficient. What can I do to improve my dust collection within my limitations? What is the best compromise?

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Bill is certainly not the best and last word on dust collection, though he has definately contributed to awareness in this field.

In order to answer your question you will need to provide more information. What are your major chip makers? How do you collect dust at those machines? How large is the area and what are your maximum runs? What are your runs going to be composed of? What is our budget?

[Bulkley]

"Bill is certainly not the best and last word on dust collection . . ."

So who is? Is there a better site out there than his?

My major sawdust producers are a tablesaw and a a router table. I run about 8 ft of 4" hose to the dust collector and manually move it from one tool to the other. The most common material is MDF. The area is not a nice rectangle so I can only estimate. The tools occupy one end of the basement. Let's say 15 x 15. Outside of that area there is the usual furnace, water heater, utility sink and a crawl only dirt shelf. At the present time, I have to keep portable. If I have to move the saw to handle long stock or big sheets, then the dust collector has to go with it.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

"Bill is certainly not the best and last word on dust collection . . ."

So who is? Is there a better site out there than his?

My major sawdust producers are a tablesaw and a a router table. I run about 8 ft of 4" hose to the dust collector and manually move it from one tool to the other. The most common material is MDF. The area is not a nice rectangle so I can only estimate. The tools occupy one end of the basement. Let's say 15 x 15. Outside of that area there is the usual furnace, water heater, utility sink and a crawl only dirt shelf. At the present time, I have to keep portable. If I have to move the saw to handle long stock or big sheets, then the dust collector has to go with it.

I am simply pointing out that Bill is quite a controversial figure in the field and there have been bloody wars on other sites discussing his work. Some figure him to be an alarmist who got cancer and blames everything on microscopic wood dust. Others consider him to be a leader in the field. There is good information present on his site. Additionally the awareness he brings to the field is a great service.

So moving along to your situation . . . .

For highly effective dust collection from a TS I am of the strong conviction that you need an overhead type dust hood. This can be the Penn state Industries unit, the Excalibur unit, Bies or the Shark Guard. For router table collection I would argue that you need a decent shop vac. It is hard to get a small DC to move enough air at a high velocity to remove chips from above the table at the fence and below the table at the motor. I would suggest enclosing the motor with a box and connect a 4" duct to the box. I would connect the shop vac to the router fence.

Tell us more about your current DC. Is it the little 1hp unit on wheels that is basically the impeller housing and motor with a bag attached to it? What deficiencies does it currently have that you are trying to overcome? A minimum of 2.5 micron bag, preferably 1 micron would be highly desirable.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

BTW a new thread would probably be better than reviving this one as the title of this is regarding Cyclones and some folks may ignore it.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Also, before I forget to add this . . . make sure you are not creating a negative pressure in the house and affecting the furnace draw and draft.

[JR]

For that kind of space the 1-1/2 to 2 hp units will cover the area just fine. You'd want to make sure to get a filter (whether bags or pleated filter) taking out everything smaller than 1 micron.

In addition, you'd want an air filter. With a low overhead, this might be tricky to install, but it would take care of all that flying MDF dust.

Low overhead: The HF 2HP DC might be kind of tall. If so, configure it with a pleated filter and you'll get better performance, finer filtration, and a shorter stack.

Mobility: I ran a backbone of 4" pipe along the ceiling. The drops have flexible hose connecting the tools, so I can move them several feet in each direction. This seems to work fine.

JR

[Garasaki]

First, you need to come to grips with the fact that Bill Pentz is NOT the end all be all of DC. He is not god, his word is not truth. The information he presents is good, and he definately has risen awareness of the needs of DC, but use your own good judgement for your own situation -

DC is not nearly as hard as people make it out to be. It consists of 3 basic things - a fan, some sort of intake, and a discharge filter. The more air it moves, the better. Don't make it more complicated then that.

There are interesting ways to reconfigure a "storebought" DC unit to fit different spaces. Here's one way to do it, a little bit outside the box:

Reconfigure the discharge filter portion to suit your needs: perhaps consider building an MDF plenum with several outlets to which you attach the cheap 15 dollar 1 micron shaker bags on clearance from rockler. Say you make a 4 foot long plenum thats 2 foot square - maybe it has 3 bags attached. Make one end removeable - when it's full you remove that end and simply vacuum or scoop out the accumulated sawdust. The plenum could either run along the floor - with the filter bags going vertical, or run vertical in a corner with the filter bags going out horizontal.

Maybe make a vertical plenum that sits on top of a 55 gallon drum - the drum collects all the sawdust.

Realize the fan dosen't need to be directly connected to the plenum - mount the fan (impeller and motor) to the ceiling or in a corner. Connect it to the plenum with some rigid pipe. Make a small network of intake pipe, similar to that mentioned above, with strategically placed drops.

Do it with any 1.5 or 2 hp unit. With a little careful planning you could have a stationary DC that fits your needs and also maximizes use of the space you have available (filters stuffed in a corner, all the pipe on the ceiling).

Summary - remember that you can reconfigure your dust collector - it's a very simple machine. You can make it fit your space better AND increase performance this way.