Another wiring question

[bigdaddyjohn]

Not sure what to do. The house has of course, the main panel. I see no markings on it indicating the max amps. There is a sub-panel off of it that has 2 breakers, one for dryer, one for the stove. I think the first two slots of the main panel are used for that subpanel because there are two punchouts gone and still open (I know, they should be covered).

There are no more free slots on the main panel.

There are two slots for "Garage", making a 220 run to the garage, not sure of the amps.
That is the only power coming into the garage. Of course, that's what I'm converting into a wood shop.

So, what do I do? Run circuits from the existing sub-panel to the new shop, using the open slots on the sub-panel? Use the existing 220 "Garage" wiring and install a sub-panel in the shop? Run new cable from the main panel, to a shop sub-panel, utilizing the 2 slots in the main panel that the 220/garage is currently taking up?

Just to clarify, this is an old farmhouse. In fact, I can trace the land back to being the original house on Indian Treaty land. So, the term bubba has earned it's meaning in this place. Everytime I try to fix something, I curse the previous owners for screwing something up when they half@## tried to fix it the first time.

bigdaddyjohn

[Dan Tipton]

RE: Another wiring question

If you are having trouble figuring out what has been done in the past, you may want to consider getting a professional or other knowledgable person in to advise you.

Having said that, if the existing 220v circuit it the garage is truely 30A or more, that should be sufficient to use as a starting point for most typical home shop wiring by putting a small (and I mean small) sub-panel on it. THis will power 110v receptacles. Any 220v tools will probably require heavier wire than was used.

Again -- be safe and only do what you KNOW is safe (and follows the National Electrical Code, or its local variant -- they are there fro a reason).

[Jeffrey Schronce]

" I think the first two slots of the main panel are used for that subpanel because there are two punchouts gone and still open (I know, they should be covered)."

IF THEY ARE NOT OCCUPIED BY A BREAKER THEN I DON'T THINK THEY ARE BEING USED.


There are two slots for "Garage", making a 220 run to the garage, not sure of the amps.

SHOULD BE INDICATED ON THE BREAKER.

That is the only power coming into the garage. Of course, that's what I'm converting into a wood shop.

So, what do I do? Run circuits from the existing sub-panel to the new shop, using the open slots on the sub-panel?

DEPENDS ON THE AMPS OF THE SUB-PANEL.

Use the existing 220 "Garage" wiring and install a sub-panel in the shop? Run new cable from the main panel, to a shop sub-panel, utilizing the 2 slots in the main panel that the 220/garage is currently taking up?

DO YOU MEAN THAT YOU HAVE 220 OUTLETS IN THE GARAGE?

Just to clarify, this is an old farmhouse. In fact, I can trace the land back to being the original house on Indian Treaty land. So, the term bubba has earned it's meaning in this place. Everytime I try to fix something, I curse the previous owners for screwing something up when they half@## tried to fix it the first time.

CAN YOU GET PHOTOS OF THE BREAKER BOX, ETC POSTED? MAY BE HELPFUL.

IS THE GARAGE ATTACHED OR DETACHED? IS THERE SOMETHING SPECIFIC YOU NEED POWERED THAT DOES NOT HAVE THE APPROPRIATE OUTLETS/AMPS?

[LCHIEN]

In the best of circmustances you would have a 30 Amp 220V service to your garage and be able to have a 220V 15A line and four or more 15Amp 110 circuits (say 4 110V circuits at 15A if you don't load them all up 100% which is OK to do).

If you do not understand how this would work or how to determine what you have, I would call an electrician for an evaluation.

[bigdaddyjohn]

Thanks

A few quick answers as I'm at work.

Yes, I can get pictures, but will be a day or so.

Yes, there is a 220 outlet in the garage. There is also (2) 110 outlets and lighting.

As for the existing wiring in the garage, it's probably going to be redone completely as I'm not confident what has been done is safe. I am comfortable wiring the garage. What I have never done before is actually placing a sub-panel, much less from the main panel.

Yes, the garage is detached.

Confused by this answer: "Any 220v tools will probably require heavier wire than was used." Why? The wire is larger for sure but I am not sure of the actual gauge yet. Depending on the gauge/number, it should be fine for 220.

Yes, the main panel looks screwy. Joe Bob the idiot must have put it in.

[maxparot]

If the main panel looks screwy then you can't rely on anything down the line being safe.
Once questions about the main have been resolved you can safely move down the line.

[bigdaddyjohn]

yep

Max, I agree.

Here's what I know so far.

The main breaker in the main panel is BR2100B (2 pole, 100 amp.)
There two open punchouts in the main panel. Not used, but exposed.

The garage circuit is 220. The breaker is BR260 (2 pole, 60 amp).
The wiring to the garage is 6-2 once it exits an additional junction box, further down the line (20 feet from the main panel, the 1" thick, black wire with no markings on it, enters a junction box. It then is connected to the 6-2 and makes the run underground via conduit to the garage.)

The existing subpanel is 100 amp and has two 30 amp breakers, one for dryer, one for stove.

For the garage I have the following: 4 floruescent fixtures, bt3, router table, drill press, 12" crapsman bandsaw, shop vac, ap1300 planer, stereo, air compressor. I also use a sealed electric oil heater for now. In the near future, I want to add dust collection, jointer, heating system, the window air conditioner, 2 additional floruescent fixtures (one in the wood storage area) and the typical 110 outlets. Good chance the extra freezer will end up out there too.

Thanks for the help.

[maxparot]

OK
Now I have some more info to work with.
From the picture of the main box I can see why you have the 2 open spaces. Since there is not dedicated space for the main breaker it is on top of the box as it should be. The oposite spaces are left unused when configured like this. A couple of block off plates should be installed to close up the open slots. I have no further problems with your main except that you don't have further capacity for expansion being the main is 100 amp.

As for your existing subpanel(washer/stove) I would guess that the feed for that is the 220v breaker in the main panel on the right hand side can't read the breaker amperage but that would be the max you could draw on that sub panel it seems to have 1 220v space or 2 110v spaces available. I would leave this as is.

As for the garage I have a few more questions.
The 220v breaker in the main panel for the garage is a dedicated 220v or does it go to another sub panel?
Is lighting presently seperate from this 60 amps?
As a rule of thumb 60 amps should be enough power for a 1 man shop but if you are using electric heat & cooling I'd say 100 amps. This would require a upgrade of the main to 150 or 200 amps. To avoid this just take care not to run too many tools at the same time with the AC/heat on.
One problem is the 6-2 wire it really should be 6-3.
The only way to set up 220v on 6-2 is to use the ground wire as a neutral and ground. It should have a dedicated neutral and seperate ground. Since it runs through a conduit replacing it shouldn't be too bad. If the 220 is to a single outlet I'd put in a shop sub panel using the line and set up all the need new circuits. Keep in mind if the lighting isn't on the 60 amp line keep it that way and you have more capacity for tools.

[bigdaddyjohn]

The 220v breaker in the main panel for the garage is a dedicated 220v.
The lighting is on the same circuit for now.

I anticipated the 6-2 being a problem. A quick check at the "Junction box" shows that the big thick black cable is also 2 wires plus and exposed ground. I'll just replace the whole run with 6-3. Only looking at 15 extra feet or so.

I'm fairly sure that the conduit goes all the way from the house to garage but am not positive. I intend to shut the circuit down, then use the fish wire to start at the garage and work towards the house. If if makes it, guess I have conduit all the way.

If not, guess I get to dig. Only a run of 15 feet so no big deal except for the sidewalk. That is more than likely coming out anyway.

The shop/garage is where I plan on spending a great deal of time over the next umpteen years. I want to do this right. However, I have an extremely limited budget. Little bit here, maybe another $20 there. I about 250' of 14-2 and plan on running it ahead of time.

The garage is an older 2 car (small), with a severely cracked and displaced concrete floor. Obviously no rebar was used. I plan on running 2x4's under plywood, somewhat like sleepers. However, they will be attached to the footers. Some will rest directly on the floor, others will be shimmed.

It will be awhile before I can complete any of this.

Thanks
John

[sbs]

Here's a good place to start to learn about installing a subpanel:
http://ths.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/w...726007600.html

The electrical forum on gardenweb is the best place I've found on the web to ask DIY electrical questions:
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/wiring/?5005

One thing you need to explore is whether your 100A service is adequate. I suspect it might be time for an upgrade.