DC Plumbing and high ceilings

[RichG]

I've been using a HF DC with flexible hose for a while now. Moving the hose everytime I use another tool is getting old so it's time to plumb the shop. I've been getting alot of good ideas here and plan to plumb with S&D but the question is... I have a 12' high ceiling in my 2 car garage (I know life's rough), will plumbing the DC up to the ceiling and dropping down (for the center drops) be a problem? I'm concerned that trying pull the dust from the BT3100 and anything else I want to connect in the middle of the shop, (jointer for instance) might be a problem. I've not done the cannister conversion yet on the DC and have read here that that will increase the CFM, but still 8-9 feet up and then up to 20' over seems like a lot to ask of the DC w/ or w/o the conversion. Any body else have high ceilings? Is 12' not a problem or am I in for trouble? Should I forget about going up and just connect center placed tools around the perimeter of the shop?

Rich

[maxparot]

If you have enough airflow to overcome gravity the distance shouldn't matter. I only have 10' ceilings in my shop with 4" S&D and I have done the Wynn conversion. Using blastgates at each tool the DC does a fine job.

[LCHIEN]

Basically the airflow requirement is such that the particles remain suspended in the airstream rather than falling to the bottom. when you accomplish that then the same airflow will work up or down or horizontal so the theory goes.

The main problem with additional height/length is the added restriction, which in turn results in lower air flow. If 2 feet up and 2 ft down does not significantly change your airflow, then you should be OK to run this up to a 10' ceiling.

Seems like smooth S&D tubing will be better than slightly rough flex tubing. I'd say go for it.

[cgallery]

I'd test the 12' rise and fall on a single, high-output tool (planer) to make certain the dust collector is up to the challenge. I've read messages from users (found via google) that have switched from ceiling-mounted (and lower than 12') piping to laying-on-the-floor piping and they have suggested vast improvements. Some of them had significant (2-HP) collectors.

Thanks,
Phil

[JR]

I have 9'-10' ceiling and am using the HF 2HP DC. I pull about 17' from the planer with no problem.

JR

[meika123]

I have a 20 x 20' shop, with 8' ceilings. I am plumbed using thin-wall PVC tubing all over my shop. The farthest thing from my DC is the Miter saw, which is at one end of the shop and the DC at the other. I am running up to the ceiling, 20' to the saw, and down approx. 5'. I am using the LeeMade DC and it will pull quarter-sized chunks of wood through the system. Of course, I have blast gates at each tool.
With a 12' high ceiling, how high is the the DC duct work off the floor? You are going to be using a separator, aren't you?
HTH,

Dave in NC

[RichG]

I use a trash can seperator now which works fine and was planning on continuing to use that. With the ceiling drops I'm probably looking at coming down 5' with S&D and then making the appropriate connection to the tool with flex hose. On the other end I'll probably come down 9' or so to flex into the can seperator. I know when I use my planner now with the 15-20 feet of 4" flex hose to the can it struggles. Sounds like the drop from the ceiling should at least work for the BT3100, which is what I need it for most.

JR, do you have the Wynn conversion or just the stock HF DC?

-Rich

[Tom Miller]

As others are pointing out, it doesn't take any more air flow to move dust/chips up 12' vs. 8'. But since you'll have 8' of extra pipe (4' up, 4' down), you'll have a little more resistance, and thus a little less cfm. Probably not much to make a difference, if you're using S&D pipe.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it takes roughly 50% more air velocity to keep dust/chips moving in a vertical run as it does in a horizontal run.

The main thing is to reduce the amount of flex hose in each run. Try to limit it to the last few feet between a drop and the tool. A foot of this stuff has the resistance of 5 or 10ft of S&D pipe.

Regards,
Tom

[JR]

JR, do you have the Wynn conversion or just the stock HF DC?

I've got the stock 30 micron bags.
JR

[LCHIEN]

I've got the stock 30 micron bags.
JR

ugh!

[JR]

ugh!

Can you please put that into a compelling business case for presentation to the finance committee? Expedited review will be assured for submittals including detailed (positive) Return on Investment analysis. Any submittal showing no capital outlay may be expected to receive favorable review.

The committee can, and frequently does, reject submittals for reasons related or unrelated to the request and may include extensive commentary related to the submittal or any other current topic. Alternatively, the rejection may contain only a haughty "Sniff!".

It is expected that acceptance of financial submittals may also occur, but has not happened in the current 12-year history of the committee, so no anecdotal evidence exists at to the nature of such acceptance, be it written, verbal, physical, etc.

From time to time tool acquisitions may be caused to occur by the commitee sitting in secret session and without submittal from a requesting department. It is expeceted that the assigned department will show enthusiastic support for such acquisition followed by on-going verbal and physical reinforcement of support for the choice.

There may also be occasions when a tool-using department will acquire tools without prior finance committee approval, due to the extreme necessity of a project requiring less than the two years required for navigating the approval process (or however long it takes, we're not sure). Such acquisitions may be ignored by the committee, especially if there is no obvious outlay of current or future capital. Secret coin jars have proven especially beneficial to those departments seeking to imiplement this expedited process.

I all cases, obvious new tool arrivals may be viewed negatively by the committee with commensurate ongoing changes to environmental controls resulting in a "chill" lasting for weeks or months.

TIA,
JR

[Stytooner]

I don't know that I can offer info that would withstand such critical scrutiny, however, my system is plumbed with 4" S&D in the shop. First it goes under the floor. Then a shot up to a 7' ceiling. Then over and half way back down. The only trouble I have had with this is when I was trying to collect plactis polycarbonate shavings off a 2" Forstner bit.
Otherwise it just sucks. Has done so for several years.
Now to quantify, the DC is one that I designed and built, so of course it works spectacularly.
I tested it once and best scenario was just over 1300 CFM. I would guess it normally around 1100, especially when the sep. barrel is getting on the full side.
As Loring said, go for it.

[RichG]

Thanks guys! Lots of good info as always.

-Rich

[LCHIEN]

Can you please put that into a compelling business case for presentation to the finance committee? Expedited review will be assured for submittals including detailed (positive) Return on Investment analysis. Any submittal showing no capital outlay may be expected to receive favorable review.

The committee can, and frequently does, reject submittals for reasons related or unrelated to the request and may include extensive commentary related to the submittal or any other current topic. Alternatively, the rejection may contain only a haughty "Sniff!".

It is expected that acceptance of financial submittals may also occur, but has not happened in the current 12-year history of the committee, so no anecdotal evidence exists at to the nature of such acceptance, be it written, verbal, physical, etc.

From time to time tool acquisitions may be caused to occur by the commitee sitting in secret session and without submittal from a requesting department. It is expeceted that the assigned department will show enthusiastic support for such acquisition followed by on-going verbal and physical reinforcement of support for the choice.

There may also be occasions when a tool-using department will acquire tools without prior finance committee approval, due to the extreme necessity of a project requiring less than the two years required for navigating the approval process (or however long it takes, we're not sure). Such acquisitions may be ignored by the committee, especially if there is no obvious outlay of current or future capital. Secret coin jars have proven especially beneficial to those departments seeking to imiplement this expedited process.

I all cases, obvious new tool arrivals may be viewed negatively by the committee with commensurate ongoing changes to environmental controls resulting in a "chill" lasting for weeks or months.

TIA,
JR

I have prepared an AFE (authorization for expenditure) for your presentation to the committee.

http://users2.ev1.net/~lchien/woodwo...fe-dc-done.doc

Good luck!

[JimD]

I have a 1 hp Delta DC with upgraded bags. A couple of my runs go up into the webbed trusses in the ceiling of my basement garage/shop. The ceiling height in my basement is 8 1/2 feet so they are going up to nine feet or so. That is only on my run to the CMS/radial arm and for my router table. They work fine (I have blast gates at each tool). For my planner, I have solid pipe run along a wall at about 6 feet up going into a drop down to the floor with solid pipe and then going through 8-10 feet of 4 inch flex pipe. The elbows are not long sweep and I sometimes get plugged where the flex pipe goes into the first elbow. Bigger radius 90 degree fittings would be better but were not available for the 4 inch thin wall drain pipe I am using (at least where I looked). I think it would also help if the amount of flex pipe was less (but that is what I need to get to where I can use the tool).

My points are that I would worry about the ceiling only for the jointer or planner and that you also need to worry about the radius of the fittings for the tools requiring maximum CFM. The BT3100 does not need maximum CFM.

Jim