Another dust collection post

[PJC]

I need help figuring out the best plan of attack for dust collection. I have a 3 month old daughter and a basement shop and don't want her breathing in my dust. I recently built a mobile base out of MDF and used a flush trim bit to even out the sides and, well you can imagine the dust that created. I have also tried to read Bill Pentz's page. Though it is quite informative, it is also a very overwhelming read. I have tried to read it on at least 6 separate occasions over the past year and a half and always get lost somewhere along the way.

My current dust collection consists of a 12 gal Ridgid shop vac with the supplied filter (I know, I need to change it out to a better one). I plan on replacing the supplied filter (VF4000) with the VF6000 http://www.ridgid.com/ContentPages/choosefilter.asp

My main problem is space. I have a basement shop. I'm am just guessing right now, but I have a rough space of about 12'x 7' for all of my woodworking equiptment (hence the mobile base mentioned above). I only have a height of 6' to work with because the floor joists for the 1st floor are at about 6' with the 1st floor itself at about 6 1/2'. I don't think one of the floor standing systems, like the HF model a lot of people use, will fit in my space. I was thinking of continuing to use the shop vac (with a better filter) and possible and air cleaner. Eventually I would like to create a system so I don't have to move the hose from tool to tool. I don't know if a shop vac could handle this though.


Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated.

Pete

[Tom Miller]

I wouldn't necessarily rule out the standard 1.5 - 2hp sytems as being too tall. The upper bag can be made to fit between the joists, and you can take the unit off the stand w/o too much trouble to gain a few inches. For that matter, you can tuck the parts where they fit best. Maybe the motor/impeller could go on a shelf high on the wall, if that helps.

With a single run of 4" pipe along the ceiling by one wall, you could make a few drops to handle all your tools. In other words, place the drops such that they're where you move your tools to use them, and keep your DC stationary.

Regards,
Tom

[LarryG]

I wouldn't necessarily rule out the standard 1.5 - 2hp sytems as being too tall.

Right. IIRC, the bag-holder hook on the HF 2HP unit is about 75" tall, but it can stick up between the floor joists. The bag itself will conform to the space available (say, isn't that [Somebody's] Second Law Of Dust Collection?)

When the HF unit is upgraded to a canister filter, which MUST be done in order for it to be an effective dust collector rather than a highly-efficient dust pump, the height won't be a problem as the canisters are all shorter than the upper bag.

Yes, Pentz's web site is overwhelming, and many people call him an alarmist with unusual health problems; i.e., a special case, not the norm, that the odds of one's woodworking causing respiratory problems as serious as his are low. That may well be true, but it requires the assumption that the bad stuff is always going to happen to The Other Guy. As a cancer survivor myself, I know all too well that if it is you the doctor delivers the bad news to, at that point it really doesn't matter what the odds were.

[cgallery]

You may have already read about my contraption. I don't mean to keep beating a dead horse, but it actually does work quite well.

My shop is about the same size as yours (probably a little smaller in some regards, but at least my ceilings are 6'6"). While I would love to have a low-noise dust collector hooked up to some sort of cyclone, it just isn't practical in the amount of space I have. I purchased a Shop Vac when I first purchased my BT3K several years ago, and have been using bags with that. Without bags, my filter was getting plugged fairly quickly, reducing the effectiveness of the vac. MDF dust was also able to escape a little. With the bags, the filter stays relatively clean, overall effectiveness of the unit is maintained, and it is a little less messy when it comes time to empty the unit. I can cut MDF w/o fear of the fine dust escaping.

The problem is I started to add more tools. I added a router table and a jointer/planer. Moving the hose from tool to tool was a pain, and the bags started filling faster (more bags = more $$$). So I built the Frankenvac:

http://www.cgallery.com/jpthien/index.htm

I noticed the latest Rockler flyer mentions all the dust collection fittings are like 20 or 25% off this week.

[ewingda]

I have a similar problem with my basement work area. I have to assume that there is a mojority of people with the same problem. Im in the process of looking for anew house and shop space is part of the "NEED" category!

I use a 16gal 6.75HP shop vac on my BT and will be using for other tools also (CMS, Router, etc.). SInce I do not have a shop big enough to use them all at once I was going to look into a gate system to keep the lenght of hose/tube used at any one time minimized (since it is a Shop Vac and not a dust collector). I run the unit with the cartridge filter (to be replaced with a HEPA filter) and the filter bag. I was also going to use one of my windows as a vent. I was planning to mount a fan in the window to blow the air out of the shop and with it the fine particles that the vac misses. This is not perfect but a step in the right direction.

I have curtained off the shop from the rest of the basement to help contain the dust in one place.

Any thoughts, comments, etc.

[sacherjj]

I don't know the height of the HF 2HP DC with cannister, but I believe it is shorter than me. I'm 6'5". I can get a rough measurement tonight, if I don't forget. I really like that system. You could get it smaller with a cyclone and smaller plastic bag on the bottom.

[cgallery]

I was also going to use one of my windows as a vent. I was planning to mount a fan in the window to blow the air out of the shop and with it the fine particles that the vac misses. This is not perfect but a step in the right direction.

Any thoughts, comments, etc.

Absolutely the right direction. Not only will it get dust outside, but vapors during finishing, as well.

[PJC]

cgallery -- I may look into the frankenvac. Is the suction still really good even with the snorkel in front of the universal dust port?


Also, anyone have any of the larger systems that can be bought from Amazon? i.e. Delta AP400 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...lance&n=228013 or something similar.

If I went with something like this, it would need to be from Amazon since I have about $125 in gift certificates. I can't afford to shell out the $200 + shipping for the HF unit. Hopefully something from Amazon will have free shipping.

Pete

[LCHIEN]

cgallery -- I may look into the frankenvac. Is the suction still really good even with the snorkel in front of the universal dust port?


Also, anyone have any of the larger systems that can be bought from Amazon? i.e. Delta AP400 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...lance&n=228013 or something similar.

If I went with something like this, it would need to be from Amazon since I have about $125 in gift certificates. I can't afford to shell out the $200 + shipping for the HF unit. Hopefully something from Amazon will have free shipping.

Pete

30-micron filtration bags are standard equipment

that's pretty "porous" - lets a lot of fine dust back into the room
you really want to upgrade the bags on this to something like 1 micron or 2 mircon at worst.

[PJC]

I only posted the delta because it was the first one to come up in my seach of two-bag systems.

[JimD]

Pete,

I have the AP400 and Loring is right, the bags were lousy. I bought an oversized bag from Highland Hardware for the top and a normal sized bag for the bottom. My wife did a bit of sewing on the oversize bag so I could use it. They capture much more dust. Suction is pretty good and works well with everything except my Inca 410 jointer/planner. I have 4 inch PVC waste pipe going all over my shop with blast gates at each tool. I have enough suction to do OK with two devices except for the INCA. With it I have to make sure nothing else is open and even then it sometimes plugs. If you use a planner a lot, you might want a bigger DC but I am pretty happy with the 1 hp Delta. Better bags are going to cost you another $40 to $50 or so which is a consideration. It would be better to just get decent bags from day one. Price wise the delta is cheap enough you aren't getting a bad deal even after buying new bags.

Jim

[cgallery]

Pete,

I have the AP400 and Loring is right, the bags were lousy. I bought an oversized bag from Highland Hardware for the top and a normal sized bag for the bottom. My wife did a bit of sewing on the oversize bag so I could use it. They capture much more dust. Suction is pretty good and works well with everything except my Inca 410 jointer/planner. I have 4 inch PVC waste pipe going all over my shop with blast gates at each tool. I have enough suction to do OK with two devices except for the INCA. With it I have to make sure nothing else is open and even then it sometimes plugs. If you use a planner a lot, you might want a bigger DC but I am pretty happy with the 1 hp Delta. Better bags are going to cost you another $40 to $50 or so which is a consideration. It would be better to just get decent bags from day one. Price wise the delta is cheap enough you aren't getting a bad deal even after buying new bags.

Jim

That is interesting. I, too, own an Inca 410. And with my Shop Vac/Frankenvac I can plane 8" wide boards and not plug. Perhaps you're feeding faster that I am? I'm only using a shop-vac 2.5" hose, too. How have you connected your DC to your 410? Are your DC pipes above you, with a drop to the 410, or do you have all the pipe on the floor?

[vaking]

I also live in a basement with 6' ceiling. The space is bigger than yours but the rest is similar. I have a shopvac for cleaning but I use a dust collector to hook-up to tools. I have a small Jet (610CFM) and it collects a lot better than shopvac. Amazon has another small Jet DC available
below:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...lance&n=228013
It is a little bigger than mine but I am sure it will fit the height limit. Native bag is probably lousy but a standard bag from Highland should fit right in.
With all small dust collectors you want to avoid complicated ductwork. They are meant to roll up to the tool and plug in with short hose. For my dust collector I added a pre-separator and combined with it a Y-splitter with reducer from 4" diameter to 2 2-1/4" hoses. Now I can connect this dust collector to a BT3 or router table using dust collection from above and below the table at the same time; something you cannot do with shopvac. (Dust shroud and shark guard on BT3).

One thought that comes to my mind - there are no good ways to capture dust at the source for hand-held routing. Given that you have a little daughter you might want to consider an air filtration device instead of dust collector alltogether or in addition subject to budget constraints. I don't bother with filtering and I don't do it all the time but I have installed a small 4" fan right into a window of my shop and I turn this fan on to through dust outside when I use hand-held router or something else particularly unfriendly.

[cgallery]

cgallery -- I may look into the frankenvac. Is the suction still really good even with the snorkel in front of the universal dust port?

Pete

Suction w/ the snorkel is somewhat reduced, but nowhere near as much as you would think. And I believe the snorkel reduces the tendency of the shop vac to scrub fine particles from the contrainer. It sure hasn't reduced the collection efficiency. So while making a larger snorkel may increase air flow, it may have neg. consequences on overall chip separation efficiency. It is easy to adjust (by making a larger snorkel or removing it altogether) if I ever need to.

[dwk]

Amazon has another small Jet DC available
below:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...lance&n=228013
It is a little bigger than mine but I am sure it will fit the height limit. Native bag is probably lousy but a standard bag from Highland should fit right in.

I have the DC650, and it is easily under the height limit. Stock bag is 30 micron, so a replacement is needed. Looking at the highland site, the smallest 14" shaker felt bag should fit (thanks for the tip - I think I'll pick one up)

For my dust collector I added a pre-separator and combined with it a Y-splitter with reducer from 4" diameter to 2 2-1/4" hoses. Now I can connect this dust collector to a BT3 or router table using dust collection from above and below the table at the same time; something you cannot do with shopvac. (Dust shroud and shark guard on BT3).

This is pretty much exactly what I was thinking of doing, although I don't have a shark (yet). Is your 'pre-separator' just one of the garbage-can cyclone units? Does that seem to work pretty well with the limited air flow capacity?