Shed building questions

[Anna]

Hi,

I am building a storage shed on top of a floating deck. The shed will be 8' by 8', at least as of this morning. I have never built a shed before (or a deck for that matter, but I'm almost done with this one), and I have been doing some research on how to do it.

I think I got the basic idea of how to build the walls and floor and how to frame doors and windows (although there is a little bit of confusion about jack studs). My remaining problem is the roof. I'm hoping someone here can point me in the right direction.

1. If I do the little cut outs on the rafters to sit on top of the walls (I think they're called birds beaks or something), what do I use to cut them with? A jigsaw? I can't imagine using a circular saw for such small cuts, but my experience with a jigsaw tells me the cuts are not going to be very reproducible. I have never had much success with a handsaw either.

2. If I just want the rafter, uncut, to sit on top of the wall, is there a metal thingamajig or fastener that I can use for it? I looked in the hardware place and I didn't see a suitable candidate. Maybe need to special order somewhere?

3. Some plans use ridges on the roof peak, others don't. Is there an advantage one way or the other?

4. I was planning to build the entire shed on my own. Is that an absolutely bad idea? Would renting scaffolding help? The walls are going to be at least 7' high, and the roof's peak is probably about 10'.

5. A sloping roof (like a lean-to's) seems much simpler. Is there a disadvantage in going in that direction over a gable roof or a (more ambitiously) pyramidal roof where the roof meets at a single point in the center? One reason I'd pick the gable roof, though, is potential storage space overhead.

6. Some plans use plywood sheathing, others use pine nailing strips for the roof. Is there a disadvantage in going the pine nailing strips direction?

7. Lastly, on the floor: The deck is not as flat as I thought it would be, although it's pretty level. Should I build a floor frame out of 2x4 that the treated plywood can sit on, or should I use 2x6? The shed will cantilever by about a foot over the deck on one side. Also, what shims do I use for the floor? Will the regular cedar shims be okay? Are there special stuff I should know about?

Or do I rent a drum sander and sand the thing flat?

Thanks for any help.

Anna

[master53yoda]

use this clip to attach the rafter to the wall and don't worry about the notch. on that small a shed it will work fine


these should be available from lowes or home depot. they are made by simpson


the lean to shed roof is easiest the

the roof sheathing or nailing strips depend on what kind of roofing your are using. the sheathing is for asphalt type roofing or metal. the strips are normally used on shake or tile roofs.

[Anna]

Oh, cool. Thanks, Art. I would not have guessed that's what that thing is for. Will make that part of the roof easier to deal with.

Any opinion on the ridge versus no ridge? Can I use the same connecter to attach the rafter to the ridge, or is there a similar one?

Anna

[dbhost]

Okay for starters, do you have a building plan of any sort? If you have any sort of governing agency such as a city, a county or an HOA, they will want to see plans for issuing a permit. Unless you are lucky enough to be in one where anything smaller than 10x12 is effectively just considered a "box". Of course you still want a plan to work from so you know what you are doing.

You need to decide what TYPE of roof you want. Shed roof (simple slanted flat roof), Gable (peaked roof), Gambrel (barn roof), Hip roof (gable with slanted ends). Construction of each of these types differs a bit, and needs to be taken into consideration.

The notches for the rafters are most often cut in with a circular saw, or a jig saw and some sort of guide system.

Some sanity can be retained using those Simpson Strong tie rafter ties. They make for quick and easy connections.


1. If I do the little cut outs on the rafters to sit on top of the walls (I think they're called birds beaks or something), what do I use to cut them with? A jigsaw? I can't imagine using a circular saw for such small cuts, but my experience with a jigsaw tells me the cuts are not going to be very reproducible. I have never had much success with a handsaw either.Circ saws are how I have seen them done. I have a neighbor that uses a regular crosscut saw (hand saw) for this.

2. If I just want the rafter, uncut, to sit on top of the wall, is there a metal thingamajig or fastener that I can use for it? I looked in the hardware place and I didn't see a suitable candidate. Maybe need to special order somewhere?That question is already dealth with.

3. Some plans use ridges on the roof peak, others don't. Is there an advantage one way or the other?Peaked roofs shed snow and water better than flatter roofs. They also offer more headroom.

4. I was planning to build the entire shed on my own. Is that an absolutely bad idea? Would renting scaffolding help? The walls are going to be at least 7' high, and the roof's peak is probably about 10'.If overall height is 10', use a good ladder, scaffolding won't help much, and will cost you in rental costs, and time.

5. A sloping roof (like a lean-to's) seems much simpler. Is there a disadvantage in going in that direction over a gable roof or a (more ambitiously) pyramidal roof where the roof meets at a single point in the center? One reason I'd pick the gable roof, though, is potential storage space overhead.A shed roof is the simplest to construct, A Gable roof gives you a little more headroom, and overall volume, but is harder to build (not by much), a Gambrel offers the most headroom / overhead storage, but is the most complex.

6. Some plans use plywood sheathing, others use pine nailing strips for the roof. Is there a disadvantage in going the pine nailing strips direction?The difference is an enormous amount of strength. Use sheathing such as plywood, or OSB for your roof decking.

7. I am having trouble picturing what you are talking about here. It's most likely me being slow...

[nadz]

+1 for the strong ties

I just built a small shed, those strong ties are GREAT, made setting the roof trusses a breeze!

good luck Anna

-n

[pelligrini]

Sheathing the roof with plywood will add more strength than furring strips.

You probably don't need any scaffolding for something this small.

A gambrel roof will give you more overhead storage; steeper sides & a lower pitched top. You can fabricate some simple trusses for this design, then lift them into place. You wouldn't need a ridge beam with the trusses, but you'd want to tie them all togeather with a 2x4 running perpendicular to them.

Pappy recently redid his shed with a gambrel roof. http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=39577

[docrowan]

Anna,

Black & Decker produced a great book on small sheds. My first big carpentry project was an 8X12 gable roof shed I built based on plans I found in their book. Lowe's and Home Depot both have a book section with dozens of how-to books. I'd suggest picking up one or two of these and using the plans in one of them as a guide.

What do you plan to roof the shed with? I assume sheet metal roofing since you mention the pine nailing strips. You can't nail asphalt shingles to anything but plywood (or OSB) sheathing.

[LarryG]

1, 2. The slang term is "birdsmouth." I've heard them called "seat cuts" and "plate notches" and probably a couple others. Most framers cut them with a circular saw, when they cut them at all ... the prevalence of truss roofs makes the skill of rafter cutting a dying art. Art's post is the ticket.

3. A ridge board can make a big roof quicker and easier to frame, by giving the upper end of the rafter a target as it is swung into position. Ridge boards are also usually required at intersecting ridge lines where the opposing rafters don't line up exactly; and they also provide a place to nail off the edge of the roof sheathing. For a roof as small as yours, it can be omitted if that seems simpler to you.

4. This is purely a function of your personal skill set and confidence level. Rough carpentry ain't rocket science, if that helps you any. Scaffolding is safer to work from than ladders; again, you own comfort level will have to provide the answer.

5. A monopitch roof would indeed be the easiest of the three options you mention. Many would say a gable roof looks nicer. For a small shed, the monopitch roof may actually offer more usable overhead storage than a gable roof of the same pitch, because the monopitch roof will have twice as much rise.

6. The main disadvantage of board sheathing will be cost, both in materials and in labor (time). Instead of plywood you can use OSB -- dirt cheap, goes on quick. If you're using metal roofing, as Chris asks, IMO plywood or OSB over the entire roof is still preferable because it helps hold the structure square and will deaden the racket of a heavy rainfall.

7. Using 2x6s will give you a stiffer floor than 2x4s, especially with a cantilever involved. For the shims I would rip narrow pieces of pressure treated material.

[Anna]

Thanks for the responses, guys.

do you have a building plan of any sort?

DB, I'm allowed to build without a city permit anything under 200 sq.ft. as long as it's at least 5 feet from the property line back and side. That's how I ended up with 8' by 8'. I don't have a plan for this shed exactly because of the weird size. I'm currently working on a sketchup plan just so that I can "cut" my materials virtually without doing the usual trial and error in the real world.

Doc, I have Truini's shed book and several from the library, plus a bunch of plans from Family Handyman. I've been to HD a couple of times looking for more shed books, but they don't have any right now (they have a lot on decks, though).

I think part of the reason I'm a little confused about what to do is that the plans I do have show the different ways of building a shed. I thought it's straightforward enough to just adapt one of the plans, but I like to understand why I'm doing things — for example, why do some plans have ridges and others don't — especially since my shed's size is a little weird.

Then there's the window. I got one for free from one of my friends who just built a house. The shed plans I have have their own types of windows, and I have to change the plans to put mine in.

With respect to the nailing strips, I was looking at a shed kit at HD, and they used nailing strips with what looked like cedar shakes (definitely not metal anyway). Hence the question.

Pelligrini, I wanted a gambrel roof for my original shed, but that will make it almost as tall as our house. DH didn't want it to stick out much (it's on the sideyard facing the street). So gambrel is out. With the rafter connector thingy from Simpson's, I think I'll probably go with gable now.

One more question:

It seems like with the door framing, there are two ways to build a header. Either get two 2x8 and nail them together with a 1/2" ply sandwiched, or use two 2x4 on top of each other. For a 5-foot wide door, does it matter which method I use? (I have a strange feeling that the answer is probably yes.)

Anna

[Anna]

1, 2. The slang term is "birdsmouth."

Well, I was close.

For a small shed, the monopitch roof may actually offer more usable overhead storage than a gable roof of the same pitch, because the monopitch roof will have twice as much rise.

I thought the rise is the proportion of the height to the run. If the final height of the shed is the same, wouldn't the rise of the monopitch roof (learned a new term!) be less than a gable?

As for the sheathing, one of the plans I am looking at, with a monopitch roof, actually uses a 3/4" plywood with the nice side facing down and OSB on top of it. No idea why the double sheathing.

Using 2x6s will give you a stiffer floor than 2x4s, especially with a cantilever involved.

Yeah, I think 2x6 is probably the way I should do it.

And I think for the door frame header, I'll get a 4x6 or something.

Thanks, Larry!

[JR]

With respect to the nailing strips, I was looking at a shed kit at HD, and they used nailing strips with what looked like cedar shakes (definitely not metal anyway). Hence the question.

I wondered if that's what you were thinking. You may be in the last bastion of shake roofs. They are in complete disrepute down here - too flammable. I doubt if any of the Easterners have even seen one.

Personally, I'd roof it to match the house.

JR

[pelligrini]

You don't need much for a header, assuming the door will be on the gable end. It's not carrying much load in that location. The one in my shop was a single 2x4 for a 4' wide door, same elevation as the top plate for the walls. Two 2x4s should be good to carry the exterior sheathing and the cripple wall above.

[LarryG]

If the final height of the shed is the same, wouldn't the rise of the monopitch roof (learned a new term!) be less than a gable?

Yes, but note that I stipulated a monopitch roof of the same pitch as a gable roof. Pitch is the ratio of the rise to the run; i.e., a "four-in-twelve pitch" is one that rises four units vertically for each 12 units horizontally. For your 8x8 shed, a gable roof would have a horizontal run of only four feet, to the centerline of the shed. That calculates out to 16" of height gain. A monopitch roof at the same 4:12 pitch would rise across the entire 8' width of the shed, for 32" of height gain.

But if you are shooting for the same overall height, then you are correct. The difference is that the roof pitch would be halved, to 2:12. This can become important depending on the roofing material to be used. Asphalt shingle roofs usually have a pitch of 4:12 or greater ... they can be installed on lower pitches using special application methods but IME it's asking for trouble.

[HarmsWay]

Lots of great advice. One thing to keep in mind in terms of permits and building to code is that although many municipalities do not require a permit for outbuildings of less than say 120 sq ft, you are still required to build to code. Typically your neighbors would have to complain though before the city will do anything.

Keep looking at shed kits and reading books until you're comfortable with all the steps required. I'll 3rd the Simpson rafter ties. Those are code in some parts of the US but mostly they are cheap, easy to use and work better.

I agree with JR, I made my shed roof match the house roof in terms of style (hip), pitch & materials. That helps to make it look like it belongs there instead of just being useful.

Here's a link to a website dedicated to sheds around the world - although mostly in the UK. This one's mine.
http://www.readersheds.co.uk/share.cfm?SHARESHED=1001

Bob

[crokett]

Hi,
1. If I do the little cut outs on the rafters to sit on top of the walls (I think they're called birds beaks or something), what do I use to cut them with? A jigsaw? I can't imagine using a circular saw for such small cuts, but my experience with a jigsaw tells me the cuts are not going to be very reproducible. I have never had much success with a handsaw either.

They are called bird's mouths. I've cut them with circ saw, handsaw and sawzall. My usual method is to start cut with circ saw then finish with handsaw or sawzall.

2. If I just want the rafter, uncut, to sit on top of the wall, is there a metal thingamajig or fastener that I can use for it? I looked in the hardware place and I didn't see a suitable candidate. Maybe need to special order somewhere?

Other posters have posted hardware you can use. However those are pricey - you need to think about whether you want to spend a little more time cutting the birdsmouth or using the hardware. Also, keep in mind that without the birdsmouth being cut, the rafter will hit the top outside corner of the wall so there will be a gap between the bottom of the rafter and the top corner of the wall on the inside. How big depends on the pitch of the roof. This will decrease the surface area you have to nail to for the hardware on the rafter and the wall face. Not as many nails = not as strong a joint. Personally I would cut them. Not that difficult. Once you lay the first one out, you can gang the rafters together and cut them all with a circ saw pretty easily. Actually I would gang the rafters together and make all the cuts at once.

3. Some plans use ridges on the roof peak, others don't. Is there an advantage one way or the other?

IMO, using rafters, it is easier to frame with a ridge beam. You need some way to support the top end of the rafter. Otherwise you need gussets of some sort to hold the rafters together at the peak and you need a way to support that top end while installing them. Whichever way you do it, plan on some rafter ties. Those will help keep the rafters from spreading and provide instant storage in the roof peak.

4. I was planning to build the entire shed on my own. Is that an absolutely bad idea? Would renting scaffolding help? The walls are going to be at least 7' high, and the roof's peak is probably about 10'.

I am rebuilding a 24'x16' shop on my own with no scaffolding. I do have two ladders though. So it is possible depending on your skill level. PM me for some suggestions on working alone if you want.

5. A sloping roof (like a lean-to's) seems much simpler. Is there a disadvantage in going in that direction over a gable roof or a (more ambitiously) pyramidal roof where the roof meets at a single point in the center? One reason I'd pick the gable roof, though, is potential storage space overhead.

Appearance. Plus you can use the peak inside to store stuff. My ladder hangs under the peak in my shed. It wouldn't be possible without the peaked roof.

6. Some plans use plywood sheathing, others use pine nailing strips for the roof. Is there a disadvantage in going the pine nailing strips direction?

Nailing strips or sheating depends on the roofing. If shingles you need the sheathing. If metal or other solid surface, you can use the nailers. If you decide on sheathing look into OSB - oriented strand board. Cheaper than ply.

7. Lastly, on the floor: The deck is not as flat as I thought it would be, although it's pretty level. Should I build a floor frame out of 2x4 that the treated plywood can sit on, or should I use 2x6? The shed will cantilever by about a foot over the deck on one side. Also, what shims do I use for the floor? Will the regular cedar shims be okay? Are there special stuff I should know about?

What surface is the deck now? If it is a wood deck at ground level, I would just run the floor sheathing directly over it and extend the deck framing underneath to suport the cantilever. Why reframe an already framed floor?

Anna

I neeed some stuff here else the message was too short.