Whole house surge protector?

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  • atgcpaul
    Veteran Member
    • Aug 2003
    • 4055
    • Maryland
    • Grizzly 1023SLX

    Whole house surge protector?

    Anyone install one or have one installed? Seems like we're getting more storms now than 10 years ago and want to protect our stuff. What brand did you go with or what specs? Prices and reviews seem all over the place. Will one in the main also protect all my tools connected through the subpanel?

    Thanks
    Paul
  • woodturner
    Veteran Member
    • Jun 2008
    • 2047
    • Western Pennsylvania
    • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

    #2
    Originally posted by atgcpaul
    Anyone install one or have one installed? Seems like we're getting more storms now than 10 years ago and want to protect our stuff. What brand did you go with or what specs? Prices and reviews seem all over the place. Will one in the main also protect all my tools connected through the subpanel?
    I installed one when I upgraded my service maybe years 10 ago.

    There are two types:
    1. The electronic types that the utilities usually offer, or that can be purchased.
    2. The canister type.

    I installed the canister type - it's the size and shape of a large capacitor, mounts to a knockout on the side of the panel, and connects to a breaker across the 240 VAC bus. The device handles small surges repeatedly, but a big surge causes it to rupture, as evidenced by "sand" below the device on the floor. Mine has never ruptured, but this is a somewhat sacrificial part. Cost is in the $20 to $30 range.

    The electronic ones cost a lot more but offer broader protection. The ones the utilities provide that mount to the meter socket are the best option - better to stop the surge before it enters the panel. The electronic ones that go in the panel are a reasonable second choice if you can't get the meter mount type.

    I would still use UPSs on sensitive electronics, I think of the whole house suppressor as a first line of defense and the UPSs as the reserve protection.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

    Comment

    • Condoman44
      Established Member
      • Nov 2013
      • 178
      • CT near Norwich
      • Ryobi BT3000

      #3
      I installed the Leviton one that uses a main panel knockout. No problems yet, visible LED's indicate status.

      Comment

      • gerti
        Veteran Member
        • Dec 2003
        • 2233
        • Minnetonka, MN, USA.
        • BT3100 "Frankensaw"

        #4
        Some years ago we had lightning strike a transformer on our block on a Friday night. Despite UPSs that killed a couple servers and a bunch of networking equipment. Thing is any little switch, router, printer that isn't on a UPS provides an avenue for the surge to anything connected. That Monday evening, finally having everything back online after 3 days of hard work, I sat down in the living room and saw another lightning hit the exact same spot on the other side of the block. The same equipment breakage, but at least I had practice now so it only took a day and a half instead of three.

        A few days later I had a whole house surge protector installed, which recently was replaced by a newer model.

        I sure hope they work... Thankfully did not need to find out yet. Of course chances are the surge comes through the cable internet next time...

        Comment

        • Slik Geek
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2006
          • 669
          • Lake County, Illinois
          • Ryobi BT-3000

          #5
          I had a lightning strike in my neighbor's back yard one summer a number of years ago. The strike took out computer electronics and one other device (which I can't recall). All of them were on the side of the house closest to the strike. The neighbor where it hit had more damage (not surprising as he was closer).

          After that I installed a canister-style, panel mount suppressor from Intermatic, model AG24013 in a type 2 fashion (where the suppressor is connected to the load side of the service panel - after the main breaker). I never had any problems after that, but frankly, I never had before the one lightning hit either!

          It mounts on the breaker panel, and sticks out from the panel about six inches. I chose this particular device because I worked on the electrical aspects of its design - I know what is inside of it. The UL testing of these devices is intense, it is done with the protection of a "bunker" because of the incredible amount of energy they can absorb. Note: I don't work for Intermatic, I don't (knowingly) own their stock, I don't sell them, etc. I just worked briefly on a contract basis when this device was in development.

          Intermatic sells it directly on the web for $133.66, not sure what it costs now from dealers. I would be skeptical of the amount of protection provided by devices which are sold for $100 less - to do a good job, it takes a lot of components inside. The AG24013 is chock full of energy suppression devices.

          As an electrical engineer that deals with designing lightning suppression devices, my recommendation is to use two levels of protection. A primary suppressor at the breaker panel or the meter box, and a secondary suppressor (like what they sell at every electronics store). During a high energy lightning hit, there will still be significant energy that will get past the primary suppressor. This isn't because the suppressor isn't "good enough", it is because of physics. The primary suppressor will handle 80%-90% of the energy, the secondary suppressor will handle most of the rest.

          BTW, your standard outlets throughout your house in the USA (NEMA 5-15) act as voltage limiters - they arc over at roughly 6kV.

          Comment

          • woodturner
            Veteran Member
            • Jun 2008
            • 2047
            • Western Pennsylvania
            • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

            #6
            Originally posted by Slik Geek
            After that I installed a canister-style, panel mount suppressor from Intermatic, model AG24013 in a type 2 fashion (where the suppressor is connected to the load side of the service panel - after the main breaker). I never had any problems after that, but frankly, I never had before the one lightning hit either!
            That appears to be the same type of device I installed.

            I chose this particular device because I worked on the electrical aspects of its design - I know what is inside of it.
            What is inside it? Is it something more than a large capacitor?

            Intermatic sells it directly on the web for $133.66, not sure what it costs now from dealers. I would be skeptical of the amount of protection provided by devices which are sold for $100 less - to do a good job, it takes a lot of components inside. The AG24013 is chock full of energy suppression devices.
            What is inside it? It may be a different type, and of course more components and active components tends to reduce reliability. As we know, price is not a good indicator of quality, and Intermatic does tend to price their stuff on the high side. I installed mine some years ago and prices have likely risen since then as well. edit: Looks like the trade price for the one I installed is in the $40 range now, compared to $65 range for the Intermatic.

            For the OP, talk to your electrician and get their advice. If you find a cooperative electrician, they can probably save you some money on the device as well (trade discounts are in the range of 50% of retail for most electrical parts - I note the intermatic has a type 1 device that mounts to the line side of the panel - and that would be better. The goal is first to keep the surge out of your house (which is why the meter mount type offer the best protection) and secondly to stop it as far upstream as possible (which is why line protection is better than the type 2 devices that connect to a breaker). If you go with a type 2 device, it should be on the first breaker in the panel, closest to the main breaker.
            Last edited by woodturner; 03-06-2016, 07:57 AM.
            --------------------------------------------------
            Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

            Comment

            • Slik Geek
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2006
              • 669
              • Lake County, Illinois
              • Ryobi BT-3000

              #7
              Originally posted by woodturner
              That appears to be the same type of device I installed.
              What is inside it? Is it something more than a large capacitor?
              A combination of a whole bunch of large varistors (devices that respond to voltage surges by dropping their resistance significantly - effectively nearly shorting out the transient and dissipating its energy as heat until the voltage level drops to normal levels), plus protective devices (particularly necessary for type 1 installations).

              Originally posted by woodturner
              It may be a different type, and of course more components and active components tends to reduce reliability. As we know, price is not a good indicator of quality, and Intermatic does tend to price their stuff on the high side. I installed mine some years ago and prices have likely risen since then as well. edit: Looks like the trade price for the one I installed is in the $40 range now, compared to $65 range for the Intermatic.
              There are a number of components in the package, but that is mostly because the device has to dissipate incredible amounts of power for short periods of time. They device is not complex, just massively parallel. Varistors are quite reliable.

              Originally posted by woodturner
              I note the intermatic has a type 1 device that mounts to the line side of the panel - and that would be better. The goal is first to keep the surge out of your house (which is why the meter mount type offer the best protection) and secondly to stop it as far upstream as possible (which is why line protection is better than the type 2 devices that connect to a breaker). If you go with a type 2 device, it should be on the first breaker in the panel, closest to the main breaker.
              Agreed. I did the type 2 installation because I installed it myself.

              Comment

              • atgcpaul
                Veteran Member
                • Aug 2003
                • 4055
                • Maryland
                • Grizzly 1023SLX

                #8
                How much credence do you give to the information in this article?

                You probably haven't stopped and really thought about exactly how many devices you have in your home that plug into a power outlet. So do it now. Go

                Comment

                • woodturner
                  Veteran Member
                  • Jun 2008
                  • 2047
                  • Western Pennsylvania
                  • General, Sears 21829, BT3100

                  #9
                  Originally posted by atgcpaul
                  How much credence do you give to the information in this article?
                  Seems to have reasonable information
                  --------------------------------------------------
                  Electrical Engineer by day, Woodworker by night

                  Comment

                  • Slik Geek
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2006
                    • 669
                    • Lake County, Illinois
                    • Ryobi BT-3000

                    #10
                    Originally posted by atgcpaul
                    How much credence do you give to the information in this article?

                    http://www.stevejenkins.com/blog/201...ge-protection/
                    The cascading of surge suppressors is spot on, and I liked how the author revealed the tension between the ideal of the type 1 surge suppressor, and the reality of how difficult or expensive it may be to install one. I agree with the author's ultimate conclusion: install a type 2 and a bunch of type 3 suppressors.

                    My opinion is that it is a good analysis, surprisingly thorough.

                    Comment

                    • atgcpaul
                      Veteran Member
                      • Aug 2003
                      • 4055
                      • Maryland
                      • Grizzly 1023SLX

                      #11
                      I went with the Eaton. I had some PayPal cash so I got it through eBay. I had no more space in my main so I condensed 2 20A and 2 15A breakers to 2 tandem breakers for the new 50A dual pole breaker. That was the hardest part of the install (not hard). It's done. Hopefully it does what it's supposed to do.

                      Comment

                      • capncarl
                        Veteran Member
                        • Jan 2007
                        • 3564
                        • Leesburg Georgia USA
                        • SawStop CTS

                        #12
                        Now that the problem of surge on the incoming electric utility line has been solved, how do you solve the problem of lightning surge coming in on your cable tv line and telephone line?
                        On of my neighbors had a recent lightning strike on their brick chimney. The chimney split and part of it fell through the patio roof and crushing the deck, surge destroyed anything plugged into any electrical outlet. Lightning melted/heated the roofing nails and melted the shingles, resulting in a lot of them blowing off. I've never seen anything like this. The chimney was not the highest point of their house. Strange though the door bell and telephone still worked.
                        capncarl

                        Comment

                        • atgcpaul
                          Veteran Member
                          • Aug 2003
                          • 4055
                          • Maryland
                          • Grizzly 1023SLX

                          #13
                          Originally posted by capncarl
                          Now that the problem of surge on the incoming electric utility line has been solved, how do you solve the problem of lightning surge coming in on your cable tv line and telephone line?
                          On of my neighbors had a recent lightning strike on their brick chimney. The chimney split and part of it fell through the patio roof and crushing the deck, surge destroyed anything plugged into any electrical outlet. Lightning melted/heated the roofing nails and melted the shingles, resulting in a lot of them blowing off. I've never seen anything like this. The chimney was not the highest point of their house. Strange though the door bell and telephone still worked.
                          capncarl
                          We don't use a landline anymore so nothing is connected there. We get TV over the air so none of the TVs are connected to coax outside of the house--it's all on an internal loop with my antenna in the attic. We do still get cable internet. This Eaton unit accepts add-on units for phone and cable. Getting the outside cable routed down to the basement and then up again to the office router will be a pain and I would worry about signal loss. I have a UPS in the office with cable ports. I will go that route instead.

                          Comment

                          • tfischer
                            Veteran Member
                            • Jul 2003
                            • 2343
                            • Plymouth (Minneapolis), MN, USA.
                            • BT3100

                            #14
                            There's not much that will protect you from a direct lighting strike. Happened to my father in law's house nearly 10 years ago, it blew out most electronics in the house, blew a huge hole in the ceiling, even popped a light bulb clean out of a socket (but didn't break it). In my opinion, that's what insurance is for though... it's a really rare occurrence that you can't really fully protect yourself from.

                            Comment

                            • capncarl
                              Veteran Member
                              • Jan 2007
                              • 3564
                              • Leesburg Georgia USA
                              • SawStop CTS

                              #15
                              Yep, you can't protect yourself against a direct strike. I had a strike that hit w tree within 300 ft of my house back in the old days when we had our own satellite antennas, just being that close to the strike the satellite feed picked it up and it cooked all tvs, vcrs, satellite equipment.
                              On a lighter note, the neighbors I mentioned, scared to death seeing the patio caved in (2:30 am) quickly called 911 and reported that her house had been by a meteor!

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