Replacing Main Panel - Matching Amp Ratings

[crokett]

My house does not have a main breaker shut off. I am thinking about doing a direct replacement with a panel that has a main shut off. By direct replacement I mean same amp rating so I don't have to worry about wire size back to the meter, etc. Either this year or next I will need a pool circuit and I want to wire a separate circuit for the shed this year. I am tired of adding half-height breakers to the sub in the basement. I also want at least one more circuit for some other outside stuff this year. I have a panel outside with 6 breakers - 90A sub to feed the basement, 2 40A, 2 30A and 1 20A. Code says I can't add more because I am allowed max 6 motions of the hand to cut all the power to the dwelling. There are no mfg or model # markings on it and the meter has no amp ratings on it. I haven't pulled the cover off, would there be manufacturer info in there?

Is there any way to tell? The wire feeding the panel has no markings on it. I called my power co, they say they do not have records. My house is 30 yrs old, would the original inspection reports, etc still be around for me to check? My idea is to get the permit, have power shut off, replace the panel, get the inspection and power back on, hopefully all within a day or so. Is this realistic? I have a wife and kids and can't really have this down for a week. I would reuse the existing ground, etc. Will that need to pass inspection again? Should I assume it will, or find out what current code is for grounds?

[Kristofor]

My idea is to get the permit, have power shut off, replace the panel, get the inspection and power back on, hopefully all within a day or so. Is this realistic? I have a wife and kids and can't really have this down for a week. I would reuse the existing ground, etc. Will that need to pass inspection again? Should I assume it will, or find out what current code is for grounds?

Sure, they'll inspect it within a day. It just might be Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, two weeks from next Tuesday, etc.

Actually, in my city with the housing slowdown the local inspections guys are twiddling their thumbs (the city has a one or two of them doing maint. & custodial work rather than being let go). Those are the guys with the final say about what's kosher, so since you're looking to pull a permit anyhow there's no downside to just asking them. The local code enforcement people can require things above and beyond what's stated in the NEC if they choose...

[RAFlorida]

David, any mods you do to the

electrical will have to be up to the present code, which includes the ground. There 'should' be info label inside the panel. Any breakers that are not showing an amperage rating are usually disconnect breakers that do not operate as current limiting devices, only as a disconnect. I don't see many people who know the 6 motion rule, (it's hidden in the NEC), but you're right on that. If I can help in any other way, let us know.

[pelligrini]

What about just installing a single service disconnect switch between the main feed and the panel?

[gjat]

David,
There is not going to be a 'paperwork' trail to tell. The wire IS marked, you just can't see it. Since it's the main feed from the Meter, it is un-breakered, so it will kill you if you come into contact with the conductor or lug. Do yourself a favor, and get a few quotes from licensed electrical contractors that will come out and take a look. It may be cheaper than you think, and you should need to have a licensed journeyman to make the connections to the meter (and probably pull the meter).

But your overall plan seems sound.

[crokett]

What about just installing a single service disconnect switch between the main feed and the panel?

I thought about that, but I want/need the extra space in the main panel.

[pelligrini]

I thought about that, but I want/need the extra space in the main panel.

It's probably cheaper getting the panel too. The prices I saw on those switches were eye-popping.

[crokett]

David,
There is not going to be a 'paperwork' trail to tell. The wire IS marked, you just can't see it. Since it's the main feed from the Meter, it is un-breakered, so it will kill you if you come into contact with the conductor or lug.

I know this. A wall outlet in my house can also kill me if I come into contact with a terminal on it. This is why I would get the meter pulled. I would never consider doing this with it being live. As for a licensed electrician having to do the work, I am not sure about this. My dad installed new service into his barn last year and I am fairly certain he did everything, including the connection to the meter. I am comfortable doing the work, so long as I can figure out the initial requirements for sizing it. I am not sure what an electrician can do that I can't.

The main feed from the meter is only about 8" long. I rubbed all the grime off the insulation yesterday evening and there was nothing to see.

I will pull the cover off the box and see if there is anything inside.

[pierhogunn]

+1 on the licensed electrician to do it...

I would hate to read a post from another mod about where to send donations in lieu of flowers if you catch my drift

[LinuxRandal]

I have a few electrician friends. They have all told me I am capable of replacing my main box, to the meter. I am NOT comfortable, cracking the meter can.

That said, since yours doesn't have a main breaker, does it have a fuse? What size is the fuse?
IMHO, get a licensed electrician in there, and have him look at what size you have. If a typical 100 amp service, you may not be able to find a larger box, in which case, you may be money ahead, to upgrade to a 200 amp box. (separate fuses, instead of half high, your other power requirements, etc)

[gjat]

Crokett,
For common insulation types, #3 is rated to 100 amps, #3/0 is rated to 200 amps. There's less than a 1/4" diamter difference between the two.

It's not hard to build a service, I've built dozens and I'm not an electrician. My crewsys have built hundreds/thousands and they aren't journeymen electricians. However, it's a different matter if you don't have the tools, experience, and it's the house your wife and kids sleep in... I've seen burnt fingers and tools suffered by licensed electricians and have friends who have lost their house in an electrical fire and know of people killed working on simple 120volt circuits.

Having an electrician stop by to give an estimate and answer questions doesn't cost anything and a little more knowledge doesn't hurt.

[master53yoda]

Your load description needs to be 200 amps service if it currently isn't have the Electrical contractor give you a price to change the complete service to 200 Amp. If it is 200 amp the wires coming into the house ( not the wires from the pole to the house) will be about the size of your thumb and obviously larger then those coming in from the power pole. 120 amp will look the same as those coming from the power pole.

Changing a panel isn't that hard but changing the service "REQUIRES" some one that knows what they are doing. I have changed many services and the power line connections at the roof are normally done HOT. The power company comes in and replaces the field splices installed by the electrician after inspection.

[crokett]

Thanks for the concern everybody but I promise not to injure myself. I am comfortable doing electrical work. I am not putting in 'new' service per se, just replacing what is there. The new panel would be hooked up in the same manner as the old. I have installed panels before, but they were subs and not replacing a main. I am familiar with most of the issues involved. My dad has installed a new service more than once so I could consult him for whatever technical help I need. My two concerns are identifying the current capacity to get the correct size replacement panel and pulling the meter. I would not attempt that. I know my limitations. I have been assuming it requires special tools. It certainly requires knowledge I do not have. I will call the power co to ask if they will do that. I know they will replace them when the work is done.

There is a fuse, but it is on the meter box and the cover is long gone off of the fuse so no clues as to its amp rating. actually I wonder if I should call the power company about it. The ground rod is attached to a ground wire in the meter box. I pulled the cover off my breaker panel. The two hot mains are about 5/8" in diameter, including insulation. There are no visible markings on them or the 6" of cable exposed between the meter and main boxes. The ground is silver, not copper so I am thinking my main wire is aluminum. I found out that the CL200 on the meter means it is a 200A meter. However I realize the panel and feeder wire may be smaller than that.

[gjat]

Crokett,
If the meter is rated for 200 amps, you're good to go. The couple of feet of properly sized wire is not super expensive. The Meter can be pulled safely if everything in the house is off. The problem lies when the Meter is pulled and there is still and electrical load. Pulling the meter doesn't take special tools, it plugs in, but you have to cut the power company's security tag. Often that causes the Meter reader to note that and they will follow up to make sure you didn't do something to steal power. Call your power company first and discuss. Power companies don't usually send someone to pull the meter unless you don't pay the bill.

The size of the ground is determined by the size of the conductors. A proper ground is just as important (if not more important) than proper insulation on the hot wires. Poor or improper grounding is DANGEROUS!

A visit from an electrician to give you a quote should be able to tell you what size your conductors are, the condition of your grounding, and give you a good idea of what you need. They could also answer the protocol questions regarding how your power company handles cutting the security tag on the meter. Per standard safety practice and NFPA-70e, nobody ever pulls a meter without hot-gloves and leathers. You may find you can get an electrician to just pull the meter and make your main connections, allowing you to do all the tedious circuit connections.

[master53yoda]

Your panel limiting factor is the meter base and the in coming lines from the roof to the meter base. typically the incoming conduit for a 125 amp service is 1 1/2 and a 200 is 2" Take a picture of the inside of the panel and show it and we can probably tell you what you have. Pulling a meter is simple You shut off all power and remove the meter base cover. the meter is tipped up from the bottom and pulled off the base. The top of the meter connections at that point will be hot and you will be able to see every thing else. Grounding should be copper wire that is #4 and going directly from the panel neutral/ ground bar to the ground rod and to the water piping. The hot and cold piping and gas piping if the house has it should be all cross bonded.

The conduit between the meter base and the panel should be bonded at the conduit nuts and brought back to the neutral bar in the panel, the grounding lug on the neutral bar should be installed. All these shoulds become shalls if the local Jurisdiction Having Authority (code department)uses the NEC. In most area's a home owner has the right to perform electrical work on there own property, this is not universal in all area's so check with the inspection dept before you do the work.


GJAT's info is all in line, must be an electrician, my side was inspection