Plumbing and codes

[dlminehart]

Now I can see a pretty good rationale for applying for a permit and doing your electrical or gas work up to code. The inspector signs off on the work, and your @ss is covered should there be a fire 10 years later when someone else owns the house.

What about plumbing? Reason I ask is that the plumbing codes seem as political as practical. Electrical wiring, well, what are your alternatives to using copper or aluminum? With plumbing, you've got galvanized, copper, PVC, PEX, and who knows what else will come along. And, if your county or city has a strong plumbers union, your code probably requires you to do the most costly thing.

I have a friend who's a plumber in a small Northern California city. He says that only about 1/4 of the folks there pull a permit and have an inspection. I don't know what the compliance rate is here in the Big City. I do know that PEX is apparently still out of code here, though OK in other areas of the state. I was quoted $7000 to upgrade my galvanized plumbing to copper, and can see where that money might be required, given the costs of materials and labor, including drywall removal and replacement. But I suspect I could do it myself with PEX for about 15% of that, with a bathroom or kitchen done each weekend.

Anyone here done a PEX installation? Or know of anyone who's suffered repercussions from not bothering with the permitting?

[Tom Slick]

I wouldn't hesitate to use PEX but I went with copper because that is what the plumber I chose used. I also didn't have a permit pulled. One benefit of having an inspection is someone with a trained eye double checking the work. A downside of using PEX where it isn't permitted is when you go to sell and the home inspector finds it.

you might already know this but you will need the proper tools that match the PEX tubing that you use. the tool-less fittings are not rated for "in the wall" use from what I am told. PEX systems are also set up differently then a traditional copper or galv. setup. They usually have a central valve setup with individual lines run to each fixture, very similar to the way an electrical system and panel is setup in a house.

[crokett]

Tom is talking about a manifold system with the central valve. A lot of people do this because

a) the length of pex allows 'home runs' with no fittings to leak inside walls
b) it is convenient to be able to shut everything off from one spot

That being said, you can also plumb pex more traditionally with trunk and branch lines, T fittings, etc.

[dlminehart]

Tom, what's the story if a home inspector at time of sale finds something not up to code or done without a permit? When we bought our house, we were informed that the gas water heater was not up to current code, as it was still standing on the garage floor rather than on an 18" platform. It was probably installed in the mid-80s, so it may have been up to code when originally installed. Presumably that makes a difference?

I hadn't heard about tool-less fittings not being allowed for in-wall use. Must check into that. There do seem to be more varieties of crimpers now. You say that the connectors must match the PEX? I thought PEX was pretty generic.

[crokett]

I guess codes are different. My water heater is on the basement floor and the inspector didn't say anything when we bought this house. Also, how would a home inspector know whether work was done without a permit? I've been around for 5 house inspections and the inspector never asked for to view any permits. There were two houses where I know some electrical work was not code and the inspector never called it out.

[dlminehart]

David, my 18" stand is required because the gas water heater has an open flame pilot and is in the back of my garage, in which petrol fumes might accumulate near the floor.

[gjat]

The problem with work not being done to "code" when you buy or sell a house is the work may have to be re-done. In the case of the older gas water heater, by the age of installation, the inspector may assume that it was done under previous codes. At that point, the home-buyer could ask for it to be upgraded to meet current code and it would be a negotiation with the seller. Using PEX is a gamble. It may never become code in the City and when you try to sell the house, the installation would be sub-standard and not meet minumum code, either current, or at time of installation.

Your gamble to save now and possibly to pay later.

If it was me, I'd look to negotiate something out with a plumbing outfit where you do alot of the work and he pulls the permits. He may just demand to make connections and be happy to allow you to do the demo, rough-in, and final finishing of the walls.

[twistsol]

As far as home inspections at the time of sale, I've been told that as long as it met code at the time of installation, it's fine. How they tell when it was installed is beyond me.

My sister is a master plumber and says compliance with permits is proportional to how reasonable the rules are. Typically if codes are politically motivated and unreasonable, there is little or no compliance. Where inspectors have a clue and are reasonable, compliance with permits is very high. If you have different codes for city / vs state, you're probably dealing more with politics than reason.

I did a combination of copper / pex for the remodel we did over the past 16 months. I ran hot and cold copper trunks and then put in a manifold beneath each bathroom, kitchen, and laundry room and ran pex from each manifold to all the fixtures. I'll need to put in a couple of ceiling access panels when we finish the basement.

I got everything from www.PexSupply.com



Photo shows the hot and cold for the kids bath, three sinks, tub/shower, and toilet. This is the end of the run for the hot, but the cold continues on to an outside spigot. There is a valve for each fixture.

[docrowan]

I'm gathering we're using the term political in this context as a euphemism for corruption. A small group of profit minded individuals convince government officials to write unreasonable rules in order to limit the amount of competition. Whether the officials are convinced through the use of bribes, favors, or simple persuasiveness, if they are not acting in the public's best interest it is still corruption in my book.

[atgcpaul]

As far as home inspections at the time of sale, I've been told that as long as it met code at the time of installation, it's fine. How they tell when it was installed is beyond me.

The buyer's inspector pointed out our gas water heater was not high enough
off the ground when we sold. The buyers requested that it be raised to meet
code. It didn't matter to them that it met code when it was first installed. It
was not a sellers market so we obliged--sort of. Their inspector should have
requested a new heater since that thing was 10 years overdue.

Several plumbers confirmed that the chance it would have been a successful
operation on such an old heater was slim. In the end I credited the buyers
$200 to do it themselves.

Paul

[twistsol]

The buyers requested that it be raised to meet code. It didn't matter to them that it met code when it was first installed.

Point well taken. Regardless of what code says, the buyer can make any request they want, or simply walk away.

We bought a house a couple of decades ago where half the wiring was current and half was ungrounded knob and tube. It met code when it was installed sometime after the house was built in 1850, so it wasn't a code violation. We could have walked away at that point or asked them to update it at which point we'd probably have been told to take a hike. We bought the house anyway and I rewired it over the next three years.

[Tom Slick]

Keep in mind that PEX was never code in his area.

[Handy Al]

The plumbing inspector will aslo check the venting. The 1st inspection failed because the guy I had doing the rough plumbing for my bathroom remodel had the shower with a wet vent that was against the code. It might have work OK, but might not.