back to 3-way Switch Troubleshooting

[430752]

Okay, this last weekend I got a little time to try to troubleshoot my 3 way switch problem with the added help of some here. To recap, I have two 3 way switches (duh) in locations you would expect (foyer and at a bedroom hallway about 20 feet away). Each swtich is at a location just outside the living room. Not sure what the switches control since they were not connected when I bought the home. (I wasn't even sure they controlled each other, but now I am per below). Anyway, I believe they control an outlet above a mantel in the lviing room since this outlet is otherwise in working order (but no power) and is the only electrical device in the reasonable area which doesn't work. As odd as it sounds, there is precedence for this as there are a few 3way switches in the house, but to ceiling fixtures, and there are outlets controlled by single-pole switches. This would be the first 3 way to control an outlet, but there are no other unaccounted for outlets or ceiling fixtures in the house that I am aware of. and no major work done to the house except maybe some kitchen remodels (none of the whole kitchen) and these 3 ways aren't even near the kitchen.

Anyway, I found the box with the hot from panel. Hooked the hot to the common terminal at switch 1. Hooked other 2 wires to the 2 traveller terminals.

Now I go to switch 2. It does have power now, before it didn't. I wasn't sure which of the three lead to the ultimate fixture (assuming the outlet), and I didn't use an ohm meter to test to the outlet. So that does leave some guessing. But, I did connect each of the three wires to the common terminal at switch 2 and the remaining wires to the traveller terminals. First wire didn't work, so I tried the next and the next. And Nothing Happened at all at the outlet. For thoroughness, I had also plugged in a lamp to every other outlet I could find in the reasonable vicinty (there are maybe 8) and when testing each configuration of my switches none of the other outlets or fixtures or etc. were affected.

So, check my math: the result is either that I have a broken wire somewhere along the way; or that there is a unknown outlet/fixture somewhere I haven't found. I'm ruling out a third option, unless you tell me otherwise, that even though I tried each of the 3 wires at Swtich2 as the common terminal, I did not alternate which traveller went to each traveller terminal. That is, once I hooked up one wire to the common at switch2, I simply connected each remaining wire to either traveller terminal without regard to a specific traveller terminal. Should it matter for the travellers? My test was done by hooking up, turning on power, and trying both swtich1 and switch2 at either position (e.g., both "up", both "down", one up and one down, then one down and one up. - this should cover all bases if travellers are reversed, no?) Anyway, no luck.

Any ideas? Thanks.

[Mr__Bill]

Good Morning 430752, (I feel like I am in "Les Misérables")

You are on the right track but you need to carry the thought through. If I read your post correctly you have power in at one switch and power out to the outlet at the other. If this is so then you're right with connecting the HOT lead to the common on the first switch. The three conductor wire then carries the neutral on the white and the two switched hots on the black and red. At the end switch the red and black connect to the two switched hot terminals and the common connects to the outlet with the neutral carried from the first switch also going to the outlet. Or to put it another way. All the white wires are connected to each other at both ends. Black hot in connects to the common on the first switch and black hot out to the common on the second switch. The black and red of the connecting wire connect to the switched terminals of each switch. It does not matter which is where unless you want the outlet always off when both switches are down. If so then swap them at one end or turn the switch over.

If the wires at each switch are not red, white and black you will need to figure out which ones are serving as those colors and mark the wires so that you can tell them apart.

I know this can be confusing here is a link to a site with a nice diagram.

Don't hesitate to come back and ask more questions if my reply does not help I am sure that someone will be able to phrase things in a way that makes sense to you.

Bill, on the Sunny Oregon Coast

[crokett]

When you say switch 2 'didn't work' what do you mean? That the outlet never got power? If it didn't work, how do you know switch 2 also has power? When you got power to switch 1, did you check to see if the outlet also had power? It also would help to know if power is coming into the switch or coming into the outlet from the breaker.

[430752]

I'll try to digest what Mr. Bill said, but a bit hard when the wires don't necessarily have those colors. The wiring, and house, dates to the 1920's and the wires and nickle tinned copper waire in a bakelite insulator wrapped in a woven cotton cloth jacket whose colors have more or less faded, all stuffed in some real old dusty bx cabling and metal boxes. But, near as I can tell, there is a white, black and red in one box and a white, black and black with red stripe in the other box. By the way, I don't have power to the outlet, and indeed am not sure what is controlled by the 3way switches. I merely assume it is the outlet as it is the only outlet not working and all other outlets/fixtures/etc. work without these switches.

To answer crockett's questions, the first box, what I call switch1, has the hot from panel. I know since tested against ground. the other two wires at switch1 don't test positive against the ground. The other box, with switch2, does not have any hot from panel. I know because until I figured out switch1, none of the wires at switch 2 tested positive against ground. Once I hooked the hot at switch1 to the common terminal, then switch 2 tested positive against ground. So, I figured one of the 3 wires at switch2 had to lead to the ultimate device controlled by these switches (which I assume, but do not know, is the mantle outlet). So, I tried each wire as if it were the common, and treated the other two as if travellers. The result was nothing, the target outlet (and any others in the area) were not switched on or off as a result. So, my theory was either I've got the right hook-up but there's a break in the connection, I've got the wrong hook-up and there's an orphaned device somewhere in the walls/ceiling, or that treating the travellers as interchangeable was wrong. I don't think the third thought is wrong however.

[crokett]

I'm not sure you are going to straighten this out without knowing where the wires connect. If one side is r/b/w and other is bstripe/b/w then you have a connection in the middle somewhere. What wires are at the outlet box and have you tested any of those between the switches for continuity?

I've no reason to doubt you but from your posts I see you are inferring that the switches control the outlet. They may not.

[LCHIEN]

referring to Mr Bills link
http://www.electrical-online.com/ext...3wayswitch.htm

this is the most common way to hook up 3-ways.

If S1 is the one on the left, S2 is the one onteh left and the light fixture on the far right,
then if you have power to the common term at S1, then you should have power (voltage to ground or neutral) at one or the other traveller at S2. By flipping the switch you should have power at S2 common in one position or the other but not both.

There should be one 2-cond cable going to the light from S2. The neutral spliced to the other neutral in the 3-cond cable and the hot coming from the S2 common.

if you have the voltages as i describe at S2 but your outlet/light is not on, then you might try one of those electric field tracing lights - the kind you hold near (3 or four inches) a live wire and the LED lights up. This can help you track live wires through walls if you know the starting point.

[just started]

How did you find the wire to connect in the power panel to get you power at the switch? As I recall from your first post there was no power at either switch. Have you popped the outlet and checked the wire colors?

[430752]

I checked all three wires against ground in the first box (Switch1). I thought I had done this before, but apparently hadn't. (Or I did, but had a brain freeze and did with power off? or etc.) Yeah, I've replaced both switches and the outlet. The outlet has wires colored black and white.

I do think I'll need a wire tracer to figure this out, to determine if a break in the line somwhere or an orphaned device somewhere. I just wanted to make sure that treating travellers as interchangeable wouldn't ruin my troubleshooting as long as I tried each switch in both positions (4 possible combos).

I gotta say that wiring in old homes is kinda funny. This being my 2nd house form the 20's. Part of the problem initially was determining if these were even 3 ways or single poles. Yeah, you'd think 3 wires was evidence of a three way, but not necessarily in these old homes. In each, I've noticed they were fond of using three wire cabling for a single pole. How? For a single pole ceiling fixture, they'd run the power through the fixture box as a place to splice wires and run switch wires down, rather than through the switch and then up. That is, they'd take unswitched power up a wall, into the fixture box and connect the nuetral to the fixture, but then run a 3 wire down where the red was always the hot and the black the return, the white would be orphaned as not needed. Why? I dunno, but seen in several spots in each house. And why they used a three wire to do that when they could have used a normal 2 wire (and make the white the return) I dunno, but at least it helped to identify. So, never was quite sure what I was dealing with presently until I located the hot, connected it with the common, and then the second switch was energized. Now just to locate the ultimate device connected to this contraption. As near as I can figure, if I'm right about the set-up to the outlet, there are no less than 4 four junction boxes which I have to sort through. This is because one box has two switches (a single pole working and the 3way) the other box has three switches (two single poles working and a 3way). There are also at least two other switches and 4 other outlets in the vicinity (same wall or adjoining wall). So, I've got cabling all over the place, junction boxes all over the place, and to make matters worse, they're buried in plaster ceilings in the basement so I can't get a definite idea of which bx cable goes to which box, outlet, etc. I've got to demo the basement celing to get any hope of figuring out my wiring, as this won't be the only electrical project I've got to tackle.

Thanks.

[Mr__Bill]

Sounds like a real can of worms. Here is what I would do. Use a continuity tester with a long piece of wire and find out what wire goes where. Mark them. Then take it from there.

I am willing to bet that there was a ceiling fixture and the wiring is in the ceiling hopefully caped off.

I wish you lots of luck and remember always test the hot to ground with a screwdriver to verify the power really is off..


Bill