Clue? GFI outlet has power, yet none downstream.

[wbsettle]

We have a failure mode that I/Google can't find a description of.

The half-bath appears to have the GFI outlet for itself and the upstairs and downstairs full baths. The GFI outlet itself has power, but none of the remaining bathroom outlets do. The GFI "test" and "reset" appear to work properly. Double checked and no breakers are tripped...also checked kitchen and garage GFIs for good measure. All outlets were operational yesterday morning, but no joy this morning when wife tried to dry her hair.

Any suggestions? Found tons of articles on GFI, but none describe a failure mode that cuts power downstream while the GFI stays hot.

Thanks!

-Brent

[milanuk]

have you checked for power on the downstream (load) terminals of the gfi outlet? If not, then I'd say your reset isn't actually working and you need to get a new outlet.

[LCHIEN]

As you know, that's not the proper behavior.

swap the GFI with another one in the house. if the symptom follows the GFI unit, then its bad.

Its rare for wiring to go bad, I imagine you have a bad GFI. They're under $10 to replace. Consider yourself lucky.

[Uncle Cracker]

It is possible that the internal contacts that break the downstream (outgoing) power circuit are different from the set that breaks the outlets built into the unit, or that some internal wiring connection in the unit has failed (you won't be able to open it up and find out). I'd be willing to bet that replacing the outlet entirely will solve your problem.

[Hellrazor]

I saw that happen before, replace the GFCI.

[wbsettle]

Thanks for all of the suggestions so far.

As suggested, I've replaced the GFI that appears to be at the head of the circuit. With no change in behavior there, I've also replaced the 8 outlets that we've found that are non-functional and should be downstream of the GFI based on memory from a power washing incident . The GFI outlet works and behaves properly, but the 8 outlets downstream still have no power. Any more suggestions before I call in an electrician to find what's probably a failed junction somewhere in the crawl space...or worse, a wall?

Thanks.

-Brent

[Hellrazor]

Did you check any/all wirenuts associated with that circuit? Check every outlet box and junction box. If wired per code, you shouldn't have any junction boxes that are hidden in a wall.

[chopnhack]

Also, kind of obvious but.... if the GFCI was miswired, line to load side, I believe that symptom can occur when tripped, other than that to trouble shoot put in standard outlet that is working and determine if the problem still exists. If it does, make sure that the breaker itself is not a GFCI type.

[eccentrictinkerer]

Try substituting the GFCI with a standard outlet. If you have the same symptoms, then it's not a GFCI issue. Try checking for continuity from the downstream lead at the GFCI to the next outlet. Sounds like a break somewhere.

A side-note, FWIW, it's an unpublicized fact that a GFCI outlet on a 2-wire circuit (old no-ground type) satisfies code. I live in a 90 year-old house with 2 knob & tube circuits that I can't replace. I put in GFCI's and now have 3-wire sockets!

[rnelson0]

Take the GCFI receptacle out of the equation. Put the black wires in one wirenut and the white wires in another. See if the stuff downstream works now. If you have a multimeter, take readings before and after or better yet, just get a power sensor. If you're not seeing anything lighting up, the wiring may not be going the way you think it is. Do you have any "dummy" switches in your house? You know, the ones that are in the middle of some vacant wall and never seem to do anything? As a silly test, flip any of those.

Oh, a good tip for checking power. Plug in a radio and turn the volume up. That way, when you're running to the breaker box and between rooms, you can hear it if the power returns.

[wbsettle]

I think the problem is going to be a bad wire/connection somewhere in the line. Just seems odd after 14+ years of what I assume was good health since I've only owned it for 4 years...as far I know, no critters in the crawl space or walls to encourage damage.

To kind of summarize where a couple of the followup suggestions went. The original and replacement GFI outlets were electrically out of the circuit path...technically, in parallel. The [not so smart people] who originally wired the house had connected upstream and downstream wires to the "line" side of the original GFI. Effectively, that should create the wire nut with no outlet in the path since the GFI and downstream conductors are energized simultaneously in that config. Just for kicks, I tried the replacement GFI wired correctly for line/load and wired like the original with everything on the line terminals only...the GFI outlet itself works and reads correctly wired either way. I confirmed correct upstream/downstream wiring by reversing the line/load connections.

Based on several sites that said push wired outlets can fail over time and the fact that all of my dead outlets are of that type, I replaced them with screw down units, expecting one of them to be the culpritus interruptus.

FWIW, this is going to be quite the circuit to trace by hand. To really make this fun, the electrician placed the garage overhead light, some kitchen lights, the laundry room lights/outlets?, dining room lights/outlets, front porch lights, and overhead light in the two story foyer on the same circuit. The powder room off the foyer, where the GFI is located has both lights/outlets on the circuit, but the two full baths lights are on a separate circuit from the outlets. All lights/outlets identifed on this circuit work fine except for the bathroom outlets and two exterior outlets. This is in a 2900 ft^2 low country style, with an end load garage (panel in garage) so the circuit is running the length of the house on the ground floor while moving front to back several times before jumping to the second floor...at least based on the rooms impacted. This is gonna get expensive...

Thanks again.

-Brent

[DaveStL]

FWIW, this is going to be quite the circuit to trace by hand. To really make this fun, the electrician placed the garage overhead light, some kitchen lights, the laundry room lights/outlets?, dining room lights/outlets, front porch lights, and overhead light in the two story foyer on the same circuit. The powder room off the foyer, where the GFI is located has both lights/outlets on the circuit, but the two full baths lights are on a separate circuit from the outlets.

That's a lot for (I assume) a 20A circuit. And IIRC when we were doing work in 1996, NEC said outlets for bathrooms must be on dedicated circuits (can have outlets in more than one bathroom on the same circuit, but nothing else (lights, outlets in other rooms, ...). I'm especially surprised that you'd have bathroom, dining room and laundry room outlets on the same circuit, because there would be a significant chance of using a hair dryer at the same time as a steam iron, chafing dish, coffee urn, etc.) Might be a good time to clean this up.

Dave

[rnelson0]

FWIW, this is going to be quite the circuit to trace by hand.

Do you have a continuity tester? In theory, if there are four outlets wired together and you remove the first outlet, you can connect to the white and black wires headed to the next outlet. If wiring is correct, you should get your continuity success. Of course, if you hit the wrong side and it's headed to the breaker, you'll still get the continuity success. I would start at the next to last outlet and test the wires heading to the last one. Then go to the N-2 outlet and test those wires headed to N-1 outlet, etc. Find the breakdown.

As for your lights and circuits, by code your bathroom must be on a separate circuit. Outside outlights must be on a separate circuit. As an addition, there are GCFI breakers - so that you don't need GCFI outlets on the circuit. You can look at the breaker box and see if any of those breakers are GCFI as they'll need reset too.

Oh, one more thing for continuity. Do this with the power off! I know the circuits don't work, but don't take any chances. Unplug two outlets from their wires. Do a continuity test and one said and make sure it fails - the wires are open, you should not have continuity. Go to the other end and twist the black and white wires together. If you repeat your test, you should have continuity. This test will confirm that the pair of wires in the wall travel between the two outlets as you suspect. It'll still be time-consuming, but it's the best way I can think of to not rip walls out or buy expensive equipment for testing - a multi-meter should be available for $20.

[wbsettle]

That's a lot for (I assume) a 20A circuit. And IIRC when we were doing work in 1996, NEC said outlets for bathrooms must be on dedicated circuits (can have outlets in more than one bathroom on the same circuit, but nothing else (lights, outlets in other rooms, ...). I'm especially surprised that you'd have bathroom, dining room and laundry room outlets on the same circuit, because there would be a significant chance of using a hair dryer at the same time as a steam iron, chafing dish, coffee urn, etc.) Might be a good time to clean this up.

Dave

Sadly, it's only a 15 amp circuit. Confirmed 14/2 wiring as well so no simply upgrading the breaker. Well, one of the exterior outlets did have one leg that was 10/2 for some reason. A quick count says that's 12 light fixtures currently active (counting the 4 recessed cans on the porch individually) one of which also contains the powder room exhaust fan. The dining room ceiling box also contains separate switched wiring for a ceiling fan. All in addition to the 9 wall outlets, which as you say could easily be powering hair dryers, curling irons, fondu pots, etc. The laundry room outlets are on a different circuit than the lights...otherwise my wife could never do laundry and dry her hair at the same time. ;-)

Regarding separate circuits for bathrooms. Is it possible the code differentiated full vs. half bath? The two full bathrooms are separated, only the powder room (half bath) has the lights and outets sharing the same circuit.

There's a reason Mike Holmes will never run out of show material...

-Brent

[DaveStL]

Regarding separate circuits for bathrooms. Is it possible the code differentiated full vs. half bath? The two full bathrooms are separated, only the powder room (half bath) has the lights and outets sharing the same circuit.

Disclaimer-- applicable code is whatever is adopted by the appropriate governmental authority at the time. But no, there was no difference; NEC defined a bathroom as anything w/ a sink plus at least one of (shower, tub, toilet). The provision about only bathroom outlets on that circuit must have been added in the nineties, because our electrician remarked that it was new, and we had to add some circuits as part of the remodel. The previous owner was electrically creative, which is arguably worse than electrically challenged.

Dave