Bathroom renovation question

[JimD]

I use 1/2 concrete board on floors and walls.

I caulk under the edge of the toilet to keep water spilled on the floor of the bathroom from going under the toilet. I do not worry about leakage at the toilet flange. It is not a pressurized connection so unless the drain is obstructed, it should not leak. You need to use a wax ring that is soft and I prefer the ones with a little flange on it. I think there is more risk of water getting at the subfloor by coming from other things in the bathroom and going under the toilet than there is from a leaking toilet flange.

Jim

[rnelson0]

There's two schools of thought on this. When you replace the toilet after you've finished your beautiful tile floor, you can either caulk around the base for a neater appearance, or leave it un-caulked. I leave it uncaulked. My thinking is, if there is a leak in the connection under the toilet, I'll see water coming out from under the toilet in time to take action. If it's caulked, the water can't get out and will slowly rot the floor under the toilet.

There's also code. My local code mandated caulking. It also mandated that there be a gap at the back to relieve any pressure if there is a leak. This means that water coming from the tub won't make it under the toilet, but if it leaks, there is a place where you'll see water coming out. It's impossible to caulk right behind the toilet anyway, so caulking 3/4 of the circumference not only makes sense but satisfies code!

[Tom Slick]

you also need to caulk to cover the shims from your uneven floor and to make sure the bowl is level.

[chopnhack]

Quote
"There's two schools of thought on this. When you replace the toilet after you've finished your beautiful tile floor, you can either caulk around the base for a neater appearance, or leave it un-caulked. I leave it uncaulked. My thinking is, if there is a leak in the connection under the toilet, I'll see water coming out from under the toilet in time to take action. If it's caulked, the water can't get out and will slowly rot the floor under the toilet."

Another option Anna is to use grout from the tile floor to fill in the gap under the toilet. This is commonly done on slab floors and does two things: 1. Aesthetics, no gap
2. Anchors the toilet to the floor - no rocking!
The other method back in the day was to use plaster of paris just inside of where the foot of the toilet would sit and that would do the same as the grout.

As for replacement - no problem the grout doesn't bond extremely well to the toilet so usually you can break the bond by yanking on the toilet in an upward motion if you need to replace it. (take the johnny bolts off first please
Leak detection.....well unfortunately what goes on under a toilet is not known for awhile. Sometimes you will get some signs on the floor below! Usually its not a problem as long as the wax seal is placed well - seat your toilet over the flange first w/o the ring - make sure it sits properly in relation to the room as well as over the drain flange - mark with crayon on toilet pencil on floor some positioning marks, remove then either put the ring on the flange or put on bottom of toilet, place, line up marks, sit on toilet to mash ring down, wiggle a little, tighten bolts GENTLY, sit on it again, retighten bolts, hand tight then 1/4 turn and you should be good to go.

[billwmeyer]

Anna,

You have one more vote from me on the John Bridge Forum. Those are very helpful people, but make sure you put all of your questions in one thread. They will combine them if you don't.

The thinset is very stiff to work with, I mixed mine in a five gallon plastic bucket with a large mixer paddle on my drill, and burned out my drill. Adding the thinset to the water is what I learned also.

One problem I had was we used a light colored grout. and a dark colored thinset. Bad mistake! We had to work very hard to make sure the thin set didn't show through the grout.

You might want to look at the Schluter system talked about on the John Bridge Forum. It uses a type of plastic sheeting on the walls and floors of a shower (if it was a shower only) and is recommended to go over common drywall. It is a little price, but it makes it waterproof. My dad did a shower and it only lasted about 3 to 4 years, as the water turned the drywall to mush.

Good luck.

Bill

[Anna]

You have one more vote from me on the John Bridge Forum. Those are very helpful people, but make sure you put all of your questions in one thread. They will combine them if you don't.

I just joined the John Bridge forum tonight and have started reading through their threads. It is interesting that they'd let similar questions from other posters "pile on" to an existing thread, something that is not encouraged here or in other forums. The people seem very friendly, though, and eager to help. I'm trying to come up with a list of questions to ask them. Thanks for the tip re putting all the questions in one thread.

I also ordered a bunch of tiling and bathroom renovation books from the library and will spend the next week or so reading them. I was having a difficult time imagining the process of re-assembling the toilet and am getting overwhelmed with the grouting vs caulking vs other techniques in sitting the toilet correctly to prevent leaks. Short of going to the store and lifting toilets to look at what's under them, I think I'll try out some reading materials first.

I have a new question, though. I'm replacing a fiberglass tub/shower with a cast iron tub. Do I have to do a structural study to make sure the floor will be able to handle the tub? When the topic came up earlier tonight, my husband and I had a good laugh imagining someone taking a bath then finding herself underneath the house after the floor collapses. Well, I guess it's not that funny if it comes true.

[rnelson0]

difficult time imagining the process of re-assembling the toilet

It's easy. You put the wax ring (or two - doesn't hurt to add another) on the flange. Then you lift the toilet up and line it up on the ring + flange + bolts (not difficult but the toilet gets heavy after holding it over the hole for a few seconds). Then you push down on it. Finally, sit on it or stand on it to make sure it's down all the way.

Here's a tutorial with photos at every step of the way. You can probably skip the part where you take the tank off if you can lift the toilet without killing yourself - or get your husband to do that part. It's awkward more than anything else.

Do I have to do a structural study to make sure the floor will be able to handle the tub?

Just like the tile, you'll have to judge this for the tub as well. Most manufacturers will provide such information.


One other thing I don't recall anyone mentioning...budget some time and money for the unforeseen things. Nine times out of ten, you won't have to worry about these things, but you could find a rotted or warped joist under the existing tub that needs replaced. Plumbing that has a crack in it. Rotted drywall. Or, getting things out of there you may put a hole in your drywall or something else.

Be careful, but plan for these things - if you can *barely* afford the renovation at the price you're planning, then you certainly can't afford an "oops", whether it's an extra box of tile or a replaced floor joist.

[Red88chevy]

Sounds like a big project, I see you mentioned slate a couple of times so I guess that's what you are planning on using. We are in the finishing stage of putting slate in a couple of rooms, my wife measures them and lays them, all I've had to do was cut them. The color of the slate was a big deal for my wife, she wanted the supplier (Lowes) to make sure all the crates were very similar. They told her they vary, turns out they vary alot. Her solution was to order much more than she really needed, that way she could be choosy about which ones she put down. She ordered 7 crates, about 1100 lbs per crate, so see if you can negotiate having them delivered. She didn't, I spent days moving a crate at a time, the hardest part of the job was unloading them. Ended up with about 2 crates extra, alot more than I would have liked, but she convinced me she got the color she liked and saved us lots of money by not paying someone to install it.

[Anna]

One other thing I don't recall anyone mentioning...budget some time and money for the unforeseen things. Nine times out of ten, you won't have to worry about these things, but you could find a rotted or warped joist under the existing tub that needs replaced. Plumbing that has a crack in it. Rotted drywall. Or, getting things out of there you may put a hole in your drywall or something else.

Be careful, but plan for these things - if you can *barely* afford the renovation at the price you're planning, then you certainly can't afford an "oops", whether it's an extra box of tile or a replaced floor joist.

Thanks for the warning. I've been learning that the budgeted time and money almost are always an order of magnitude lower than actual time and money spent on the project. If something goes wrong because of the house, I'll be back here moaning and groaning about it. I have a little bit of experience with drywall installation when I fixed up my shed, so that doesn't scare me as much as not knowing which type of board to put up. I hope the floor joists are okay. The house is barely 8 years old (we're the first owners) and I'm hoping the final home inspection would have uncovered any irregularities. I'm assuming 16" on center is the standard.

Right now, I'm more worried about screwing something up and having to listen to my husband say, "I knew we should have hired someone to do this."

Red, what kind of thinset did you use? I read somewhere else that they used mortar for slate, and that there may be special considerations when installing slate in the bathroom and on the front steps. Also, what brand sealer did you use?

... (B)ut she convinced me she got the color she liked and saved us lots of money by not paying someone to install it.

That's pretty much what I tell my husband.

[Red88chevy]

We got the thinset from Lowes. The project has gone on for so long that we have used several different types. Most of it we put down with Ultraflex 1, but for the last few bags I believe we used Keraset (cheaper) for the last few bags and it seemed to do fine. Initially my wife wanted slate in the bathroom but there were some questions if it would be slick when wet so we put tile in the bathroom. Guess that would apply to the steps also, you could get a couple of pieces and hose them down and see if they feel slick to you. Sealer was also from Lowes, can't remember the name, but did get one that said it was made for natural stone. They had a little 1 gal spray bottle that made it easy to apply. Before we started the project my wife called a local tiling company and just got an over the phone quote for having them do it. It seems like we saved around $8000 by doing it ourselves, those kind of numbers make all husbands happy.

[rnelson0]

Right now, I'm more worried about screwing something up and having to listen to my husband say, "I knew we should have hired someone to do this."

If your husband is anything like my wife, you'll hear about it years later no matter how well it looks Every time that comes up, I just pull out the folder I have with the receipts and the tally at the bottom, nips that in the bud real quick.

If your house is 8 years old, it's very likely to have 16"o.c. joists as long as you had a competent builder. Even cheapskates won't cheap on that. However, slate on a 2nd or 3rd story is a LOT of weight, so I'd ask an expert to calculate the load. If the joists won't support it, typically all you need to do is add some extra boards between the joists, either straight panels between them or an X frame of wood. Not difficult or costly.

It seems like we saved around $8000 by doing it ourselves, those kind of numbers make all husbands happy.

What was the square footage for this job? I was looking at 25sqft (just the floor portion) and getting $1500-2000 ballparks.

[mschrank]

Right now, I'm more worried about screwing something up and having to listen to my husband say, "I knew we should have hired someone to do this."

My experience is that the "pros" screw things up too...it just costs more to have them do it. I've hired out a few jobs over the years, and I've been disappointed with all of them except for the tile guy and concrete countertop guy (who were friends).

Don't worry about a major screwup...you're obviously researching everything in depth. You'll do fine....any buy yourself (not the naysaying hubby) something nice with all the money you'll save.

[JimD]

The biggest variable in tiling should be the tile (or slate). Installation can vary a little by material but should be pretty constant. I think they get about $5/sq ft around here. If you buy tile for $2/sq ft, 25 sq ft would be around $1750. Slate is probably significantly more than $2/sq ft. The tiling guy that did everything on our house I didn't used to do roofing but then figured out tiling paid better and he didn't have to work on the roof. He was not real experienced but did OK.

Jim

[Anna]

My experience is that the "pros" screw things up too...it just costs more to have them do it. I've hired out a few jobs over the years, and I've been disappointed with all of them except for the tile guy and concrete countertop guy (who were friends).

Don't worry about a major screwup...you're obviously researching everything in depth. You'll do fine....any buy yourself (not the naysaying hubby) something nice with all the money you'll save.

Mike, thanks for the vote of confidence. I don't want to knock my husband because he really is very supportive. There are just some projects that he'd like to be over with sooner rather than later.

We were talking about that over dinner, and he said it's nice to just have someone come in and finish everything in a couple of days. I, on the other hand, take a bit longer because I overanalyze pretty much every step. That's partly because I'm still learning. It's also partly because I change my mind. A lot. Which is a problem when you have someone doing the project for you because it'll cost an arm and a leg to keep changing the plan.

The biggest variable in tiling should be the tile (or slate). Installation can vary a little by material but should be pretty constant. I think they get about $5/sq ft around here. If you buy tile for $2/sq ft, 25 sq ft would be around $1750. Slate is probably significantly more than $2/sq ft. The tiling guy that did everything on our house I didn't used to do roofing but then figured out tiling paid better and he didn't have to work on the roof. He was not real experienced but did OK.

I looked at the slate tiles at HD today, and they're awful. Granted they were less than $2/sq.ft, but this is probably one project where it is really worth it to get the right stuff.

The HD install rate is $6/sq.ft. which is just insane. If I'm not paying them that much to install hardwood floors, there's no way I'm paying them that much to install tiles either. If I get tiles at $2/sq.ft. I can afford to mess up 4x the number of tiles I need before I'd be better off hiring someone to do the job. And I don't think I'm that incompetent.

[JimD]

I doubt you will lose near enough tile to have a problem saving money. The key steps are to get a solid base for the tile (like concrete board over a stable subfloor) and to use latex modified thinset mixed reasonably well. You also need to be careful about keeping lines straight. If you do these simple things, you should get good results. Cutting is not hard and if you mess up a time or two, it isn't that big a deal. I do the larger cut pieces first so I can recycle them into the smaller cut pieces if necessary.

Jim