Bathroom renovation question

[Anna]

I'm planning to redo the guest bath which serves as my bathroom (Husband has the other bathroom). It's not a very big space, but it has tiled floors, an oak built-in vanity, and one of those ugly integrated plastic shower/tub thingies. I have a few questions that I'm having a difficult time finding the answers to.

If I want to tile parts of the walls, do I have to remove the finished textured drywall that's in place and replace that with the green one, or can I just lay tile directly on dry wall?

If I remove the integrated tub/shower thingie and replace that with a real tub and tile around it, are there any special considerations I have to think about? Right now, I'm thinking there'll be the drain on the floor and the shower and faucet holes on the wall. It seems like it should be easy to fix it up, but I've seen enough DIY shows on TV where the bathroom stays gutted for months/years (the DIYer seems to get stuck) to make me wonder what it is I'm missing.

To replace the tiled floor, I should use a hammer to remove the tiles, right? And I'm supposed to remove the toilet first? Also, will it really stink when the toilet is removed? How do you cover the hole that connects directly to the sewers? Is there a special cover for it, or do you just crumple paper/plastic bag and stuff it in there?

Is this something that someone as inexperienced as I am should be doing, or do I listen to my husband and hire someone who'll probably end up not doing it exactly the way I want him to anyway?

And which is easier: redoing the bathroom, building a fireplace mantle and surround, or installing hardwood floors?

I'd appreciate any comments. This is something that my husband and I have been sort of arguing about since winter began. His main concern is that I leave his bathroom alone (fat chance), and that's why he's steering me towards doing all the other things first. He also thinks I can't do the bathroom on my own. I'm betting that I probably can, if I can just find a good resource on how to do it right.

[mschrank]

Having recently finished a bathroom and kitchen remodel, I can answer a few of your questions.

You can put tile directly onto drywall, but that's not the optimum method. The green board buys you a marginal bit of water resistance, but still doesn't provide the proper base for tile. You really need 1/2" cement backer board. It's pretty easy to work with: score and snap is a lot less messy than trying to cut it with a circ saw and abrasive blade. You could apply the backer board directly over the drywall if the extra thickness isn't a problem...or you could remove the drywall and replace with the backer board.

I replaced my baby blue fiberglass tub/surround with a real tub and tile surround. Same approach to the walls as above, plus you need a water barrier. There's some fancy products available...I used 15# building paper. My existing drain lined up close enough to the new one, so no big trouble there...YMMV.

I didn't have to remove any tile, so can't offer an experienced opinion there. You'll want to remove the toilet first...the tile should extend underneath it. You can either stuff a rag in there, or buy a properly sized "test plug" to cap the poo chute.

From what I've read of your past posts, you're plenty handy enough to handle the job...but that doesn't mean you should. I've tiled a bit before, but I hired a pro friend to do my shower surround. I just didn't have the time nor inclination to do a job that big. I did most of the demo and grunt work...just let him do the tiling.

Check out the John Bridge Tile forum for a bunch of great advice.

Regarding which of your three jobs is easier: Guess it depends on your definition of easy. I've done a bit of each, and I would say the hardwood floor is the easiest in terms of skill level, but hardest on your back. Building the surround is least strenuous, but probably involves the most craftsman ship. Redoing a bath is strenous and takes some skill (tiling, plumbing, electrical).

[Timmah80]

I always use an air chisel to pull up tile. Be sure to wear long sleeves, gloves and a face shield if you can. The tiny slivers of tile are incredibly sharp.

I also agree that hardwood is the easiest to do as far as labor goes, although I don't know if my knees agree with that.

[Anna]

Mike, Tim, thanks. That was great information. I've forgotten about the cement backer boards. And using something like a face shield never occured to me.

I'm thinking right now that I should start with the entryway floor tiles for practice before I tackle the bathroom. I'll also have to do the kitchen to match, but I'm not sure about how to tackle the space under the refrigerator and the gas range. Any tips on moving the fridge and range out of the way? I thought I can work on the clear area first, finish that, and then move the fridge and range to get to the tiles under them. Is that a bad idea?

If I tile both walls and floor (for the bathroom), does the tile go up on the wall first or the floor first?

For the hardwood floors, with the money I'd spend on installation fees I can buy a really good pneumatic floor nailer to install the wood myself.

What my husband seems to be objecting to is the prospect of having bare floors around the house for months on end since I'm a little handicapped when it comes to estimating the time of project completion (a two-week garage storage project went on for two months instead).

As for the fireplace surround, I just bought a book on how to build a mantel and surround and will go from there.

[jonmulzer]

For home projects you figure out how much and how long it will take. Then multiply the dollar figure by 4 and the time estimate by 10 and add a week. That will get you in the ballpark usually.

[Popeye]

You need your own show on the DIY network Anna. I done two bathrooms in the last 2 1/2 years. Never tiled before then. It isn't rocket science but it's hard on the back and knees. You only need the cement backer board for wet areas like the tub surround, under the floor and maybe up the wall around the sink if you're doing a tiled back splash. (I didn't, I just tiled over the paneling) hasn't been an issue but I'm not that sloppy brushing my teeth.
If you aren't moving any plumbing fixtures around then the plumbing is pretty straight forward and easy. But it helps to have a hardware store close by.
Oh, and on the tile.... buy a cheap HF wet saw and some tile nippers.
Each of my bathrooms took about a month and a half after work and on weekends. Both were rip down to bare walls and on only one did I move anything (moved the toilet to a different wall.) Everything else was just replace existing fixtures. Here is a link to one http://bt3gallery.cpu-etc.com/main.php?g2_itemId=1944
and a link to the other http://bt3gallery.cpu-etc.com/main.php?g2_itemId=2178
It's a heck of a lot of work but it's worth it to get exactly what you want. Good luck with it, Pat

[Tom Slick]

you can use 1/4" hardiboard directly over drywall as backer on the wall tiles.

There is a special plug for the toilet, some use air to fill a rubber bladder, others use a nut to expand the plug.

[crokett]

When I redid my bathroom a while back and took out the toilet, there was a plastic cap that costs less than a dollar that I used. Better than bags because it keeps you from dropping tools or fasteners down there.

I would tile under the fridge/range first. It gets the harder jobs out of the way and gives you practice on an area that won't show.

[Anna]

Thanks, guys. I think I have a good handle on how to do it now. I still have to finalize the plan (what kind of tiles, bath tub, fixtures, etc), but the basic questions I had are pretty much addressed.

My biggest concern was the toilet plug because, well, it's just gross.

Pat, your bathrooms look great! And I really like the tile patterns on the walls. If I can do half as good a job as you did, I'd be happy.

[Schleeper]

Anna, we remodeled 2 and 1/2 baths in the last 2 years, and I also helped one of my sisters remove old tile from her kitchen last year. You've already received some great tips; now let me pass on a few things that I learned from painful experience.

Smashing the old tile with a hammer sounds like a quick way to take up the old floor, but don't do it. I did, and I'm dealing with a nasty case of tennis elbow as a result (and I don't even play tennis!)

It's probably a good idea to use a plug instead of a rag, for keeping the sewer odors from invading your living space. I went the rag route, and the first toilet I reinstalled nearly overflowed the first time I flushed it. I forgot to take the rag out of the waste pipe!

You'll be mixing your thinset up in small batches to prevent it from drying out before you can use it. That doesn't, however, mean you should mix it up in a bucket. I tried it, and I'm not sure what was worse: the pain in my hands and arms, or my sweat pouring into the bucket and ruining the consistency. If you don't already have one, pick up a plastic tub for mixing from HD or Lowes. It makes mixing a piece of cake (relatively speaking.)

Our original plans did not call for me doing the tile floor in our master bath, but the guy we contracted with kept stringing me along, to the point where I finally got pissed off and did it myself. It was my first and only tile job, and I still marvel at how good it looks. A good deal of the credit goes to my wife, for deciding she wanted the tiles laid diagonally. It's not only nicer looking; it's harder to spot tiles that aren't lined up correctly.

[chopnhack]

If you are using thinset for laying your tile, you can use a version of that as well for your wall tile. Make sure you make it thicker than what you would use for floor tile. The less water in the mix in general is better with concrete. The thinset will "grab" most wall tile w/o needing support -except on larger sizes or on poorer quality tiles. Def. stuff the toilet as flies will eventually come out of it as well as other un-mentionables. Start with floor first then wall tile and no, if there is no direct contact with water, tile to drywall is perfectly ok. By doing floor first, you can hide any ragged edges as long as the edge is less than the thickness of the wall tile. Always think of how to "hide" your work via each step. That is how builders work and how things look good even though they may not be level and square - but they look right

[Anna]

It's probably a good idea to use a plug instead of a rag, for keeping the sewer odors from invading your living space. I went the rag route, and the first toilet I reinstalled nearly overflowed the first time I flushed it. I forgot to take the rag out of the waste pipe!

That was the first thing my husband warned me about when I told him about my plan. Apparently, it's not an uncommon occurrence.

You'll be mixing your thinset up in small batches to prevent it from drying out before you can use it. That doesn't, however, mean you should mix it up in a bucket. I tried it, and I'm not sure what was worse: the pain in my hands and arms, or my sweat pouring into the bucket and ruining the consistency. If you don't already have one, pick up a plastic tub for mixing from HD or Lowes. It makes mixing a piece of cake (relatively speaking.)

I don't understand. Why would you have pain in your hands and arms? Is it from mixing? I always thought I would have to get a mixer that attaches to a drill for this part. Also, is there a special thin set I'm supposed to look for? Right now, they all look the same to me.

I'm leaning towards using slate tiles, but I'm not sure if there is anything special I have to worry about as opposed to porcelain tiles.

Oh, one last thing. When you remove the toilet to work on the floor, where do you store the toilet? And would flushing it several times before removing it help with the smell?

[TheRic]

To plug the toilet hole I have used a couple layers of overlapped Duct Tape over the area, with no problem. I make a big patch, then place it over the flange.

Have heard of using Saran Wrap over it, then use Duct Tape over that. The Saran Wrap to keep the oder out, the Duct Tape to keep tools out. Have also heard of using Aluminum Foil between the Saran Wrap and the Duct Tape, helps keep the Saran Wrap in place?? Note this works best if you can tuck the Saran Wrap (and Aluminum foil) under the flange.

I think all the options depends more on air vent(s) location and flow. And the air flow in/out of the area.

[chopnhack]

"I don't understand. Why would you have pain in your hands and arms? Is it from mixing? I always thought I would have to get a mixer that attaches to a drill for this part. Also, is there a special thin set I'm supposed to look for? Right now, they all look the same to me."

- Yes, for a few bucks you can buy an attachement for mixing paint - it works fine for thinset - pour some water in bucket first, then start adding in thinset - mix well, add more thinset/water to get consistency that you want - mix outdoors - the fines get everywhere! Always better to add more thinset to a thin mixture than to add more water to a thick mixture IMO, the change is logarithmic. A little more water to a thick mix always seems to make it too loose, so I got into habit of always adding more powder to a mixture. You get a better mix anyway.

- They make a wall tile thinset for that purpose.

- Set toilet aside, in garage or wherever that won't be in your way - toilets dont smell when you remove the water from them. - turn off water valve, flush, get some automotive sponges and use them to sop up whatever is left in tank and bowl. Also not a bad idea to clean toilet first before you remove it, that way as you spend the next 30 mins of your life hugging it like you were in college again, at least it will smell good! When removing toilet, remember that the wax ring will be partially attached to the underside still and that makes a real mess. Put toilet down on heavy duty garbage bag or newspapers or have a helper scrape the underside with a pce of cardboard while you tilt the toilet. Remember that some water can still trickle out when you tilt it!
If you need any help just PM me.

[Anna]

Also not a bad idea to clean toilet first before you remove it, that way as you spend the next 30 mins of your life hugging it like you were in college again, at least it will smell good!

Okay, that got me laughing out loud.

That's interesting about adding thinset to water rather than the other way. Will have to remember that.

Removing the toilet is the grossest part, to my imagination anyway, of the entire process. When I first realized that I would have to remove the toilet, I almost conceded that I would have to hire someone to do the floor tiling so I don't have to do the "icky" part. But I think I should be able to do this on my own.

I'll be back with more questions when I finally get this project started. Thanks again, guys.