Flip this house!

[jziegler]

I will second the U-Sand machine, if you want to DIY the floors. I rented one, and it worked ver well, and gets almost as close to the edges as edge sanders do. Cost to do a 10x12 room was a one day rental and a couple dozen pads (uses 4 at a time) for a total of around $100. One day was plenty of time for a room that size, I even had it cleaned up and the first coat of poly on that evening.

Can't offer much help on the kitchen, I wen the slow way and build my own cabinets. Good results, very time consuming.

Jim

[jseklund]

Have you considered laminate flooring? You can get it under $1 SF and you wont have the matching issue.

Paint and replace the hardware in the kitchen or look at the lower end ikea stuff.

Trim is as everyone else suggested.

Nope. Laminate isn't an option in this home- gotta be hardwood. I think I can do it and keep it all in my budget. I'd rather have the hardwood- it'll make it look much nicer. The thought is a good one- but just not in this instance.

Jan- thanks for the input. I am thankful you told me about this machine, I will look for it. I'd rather spend longer and not do damage than try to rush and cause more work. The existing kitchen cabinets are pine. They're OK, but I want them to stand out. I would refinish, but it's not worth it in the end I think if a quick re-sale is my goal. I've been selling RE long enough to know that people look for every little thing to not buy a house. It's gotta have impact (but not necessarily be expensive). And as for the pre-hung doors, that's the route I'm taking. None of the doors are re-usable really. The home was a rental for a while, and I think someone had a bit of a temper- holes in almost every door. Less than $40/door and it will make everything look great.


jziegler- I am going to have about 600 SF of sanding to do. Will the machine you and Jan suggest do the stairs too? I'm a little nervous about gouging the floors, so this machine seems the way to go. I don't have the time nor the skill at this point in my woodworking career to build the cabinets I don't think. At least I don't have the time to screw up as I learn that is....

So far this house is going to need a new septic and all new windows and shingling. I'm going to rip out the kitchen and put in maple cabinets with stainless appliances and granite countertops. Bathroom vanities will be replaced with granite counters. I'm going to take down a wall and make one of the bedrooms a dining room. Paint everything. Redo the floors and put down hardwood in the "new" dining room. Replace all the doors, put in all new electrical switches/outlets, tile the kitchen and baths, put down new carpets in the beds. Gonna be a lot of work. It's a 1600+ square feet, 3 beds, 2 baths, cape cod house (Both style and location). So basically I want to completely renovate it and sell it for about $325K.

Thanks for all your input. Sorry for not responding more quickly- I've been working during the day until about 5:30, coming home and getting ready, going to the house to prep things and paint, getting back anywhere between 9:30 and 12 at night, doing some paperwork that I do for money on the side after that, sleeping, and starting over. It's gonna be a lot of fun over the next 3-4 weeks!

[jziegler]

jziegler- I am going to have about 600 SF of sanding to do. Will the machine you and Jan suggest do the stairs too? I'm a little nervous about gouging the floors, so this machine seems the way to go. I don't have the time nor the skill at this point in my woodworking career to build the cabinets I don't think. At least I don't have the time to screw up as I learn that is....

So far this house is going to need a new septic and all new windows and shingling. I'm going to rip out the kitchen and put in maple cabinets with stainless appliances and granite countertops. Bathroom vanities will be replaced with granite counters. I'm going to take down a wall and make one of the bedrooms a dining room. Paint everything. Redo the floors and put down hardwood in the "new" dining room. Replace all the doors, put in all new electrical switches/outlets, tile the kitchen and baths, put down new carpets in the beds. Gonna be a lot of work. It's a 1600+ square feet, 3 beds, 2 baths, cape cod house (Both style and location). So basically I want to completely renovate it and sell it for about $325K.

The U-sand will be fine for 600 SF, but no good on stairs. It's just not designed for it, too big and heavy to support, only 2 of the 4 pads would fit. I hate to say it, but I think that I regular ROS is the best bet for stairs. Probably a weekend rental could do 600 SF, unless the old floor is really bad.

As for the kitchen, depending on your budget for this, have you considered granite tile for the counters? Less than 1/4 the price of solid granite, still a nice look. Just an extra thought the throw out to you. I put in the tile (black) and everyone loves the look.

Jim

[jseklund]

As for the kitchen, depending on your budget for this, have you considered granite tile for the counters? Less than 1/4 the price of solid granite, still a nice look. Just an extra thought the throw out to you. I put in the tile (black) and everyone loves the look.

First- thanks for the advice on the U-Sand. I was actually considering the ROS on the stairs, but was afraid. Glad to know I'm not completely dumb- or if I am at least I'm in great company.

The tile idea is a great idea. I am going to see what happens- I think the kitchen guy I'm using has some left over that he bought in bulk. I'm normally skeptical of a contractor who has "left overs" because it usually means stolen from another job- but I've known this guy forever and I think he just bought a bunch of it and has a small batch left to get rid of.

Thanks again for the great advice!

[Jan]

If you're putting in new prehung doors you can make sure that they're plumb and square. The biggest hassle putting trim into an old house is that the jambs usually aren't remotely square. Some nice, inexpensive, MDF trim in the entry way, front room, and dining room give a place more class without costing too much. Smaller less expensive trim elsewhere is common and expected. A chair rail looks very nice in a dining room and it's the easiest install I know of.

An oilbase finish on the floors gives a nice look without stain. Stain adds an extra layer of work and waterbase finish without stain is lifeless. A ROS is a good bet for the stairs. Old floor finish gums the paper quickly so buy plenty and change it often.

I like the tile idea too: a good look for less money. A back splash using the same material shouldn't add too much to the bill.

Consider GFCI outlets if the service in the house isn't grounded.

[gwyneth]

My late mom made a lot more money flipping and renting property than as a college teacher. Here is the condensation of some of her wisdom--and then some of her non-wisdom (idiocy, actually).

The advice so far has all been pretty sage--particularly the thoughts about checking the floor under the carpet.

You may want to rethink the stainless appliances. They will probably not make their cost back. However, make sure there is a garbage disposal and a dishwasher, because they will pay back several times their cost. Also, be sure the laundry hook-ups are ready to use and 'normal'--i.e., not in the nursery or something like that.

Depending on how many bathrooms the house has, and what floor they're on consider adding a powder room and or another bath. These almost always pay back at least several times their cost and sometimes many times their cost.

Save some of your money for landscaping--not fancy, but competent. Start that now.

Don't spend a lot on anything the potential buyer could dislike and mentally subtract the cost of replacing from your price. For example, putting in ceramic tile is good--but if you do, it should be white, because virtually everybody can live with it, instead of ANY color, because somebody won't like it. (The vanilla ice cream principle.)

Simple design is better for cabinets, woodwork, trim, everything--both because inexpensive plain looks MUCH better than inexpensive ornamental but it's less likely to be noticed.

"Noticed", as you've probably observed from selling houses, is more likely to be bad than good.

Put fire extinguishers where they're likely to be seen (but not scream 'firetrap!!!'). If done right, adds LOTS of sub-conscious trust about the quality and safety of house systems.

Consider the idea of selling on contract-for-deed without a lot of fixup--people who want/need owner financing can't be choosers, you can get a nice markup and interest, and deed stays with you if they default (in some states it's called a land contract for five years or something 'till they get a conventional mortgage).

You will not save money using cheap labor. You will pay for it later instead of upfront, in any or all of these ways: shoddy work, excessive markup, missed deadlines, way more time to complete, re-doing, frustration.

This is true even for relatively 'unskilled' labor. You are better off paying more per hour to motivated college students, for example, than less per hour for a 'handyman' or cleaning service.

Unless you're unusually fortunate, specialist workers almost always end up being less expensive than those who say they can do everything.

Before you paint anything yourself, get prices from a pro--sometimes, the total for their time and materials is barely more than you'd pay just for materials. If you do decide to do it yourself, go with white in 5-gallon containers and buy a good airless sprayer. The same white each time you get more.

Always, always, always get several quotes. This is not only educational, it helps keep you from spending too little or too much (and as you may have gathered, the former is just as bad as the latter).

If anybody, even an off-the-books person or your girlfriend's cousin who "works cheap", brings beer onto the job site and consumes it at any proximate time to work, forget him or her. At best, s/he does not show a professional attitude. At worst, potentially much worse. This should not even be something you have to tell them not to do again.

On the other hand, keeping around ample cold pop and bottled water, and possibly snacks and sandwich makings, can be the single most cost-effective expense of the whole project. LOTS of benefits, from subconscious gratitude to keeping workers on site to boosting their energy. Having been the rescue contractor on several of my mother's huge projects, overseeing as many as 15 workers at once, I cannot stress this one enough...sounds dumb, sounds 'nicey-nice' but the cost-benefit ratio is astronomic.

Do not skimp on trash bags, either quantity or quality.

[Scottydont]

I have "flipped" 12 houses now. I wish there was a handbook for it and I would have saved a lot of money, time and greif. Like was mentioned in a previous post, spend you money where it makes the most difference. Bathrooms and Kitchens get the most return on the investment when it comes to remodeling.

Let me preface this that there is very little remodleing that I am not capable of doing myself. However there are many remodeling issues that I would choose not to do. I have refinished hardwoods and I can say that I would I could do them fairly skillfully. The fnishing is the fun part. The not-so fun part is sanding. I rented a floor sander and quickly learned that in the wrong hands they can create more work than they save. My advise would be get bids from several contractors and do a good eastimate of what it would cost to do your own. You might be suprised that not to much more you can save yourself the headache.

As for kitchen cabinets I would look for a direct to the public type cabinet supplier. Have them come out and do the measuring and give you tips on design. Cabinets are kind of fun to hang IMHO.

[jseklund]

Gwyneth- Very sage advice indeed. I've done A LOT of reading on this subject, but I'm actually a rare Realtor who does more investing in the stock market than in real estate. I can see benefits to both investments- but I think learning about what investing is in the stock market has given me a better perspective on "investing" in real estate. What most people call investing is actually gambling. I've gotten a ton of quotes, some of which I'm going to keep looking for, others I'm going with, and others I'm not even going to quote on anymore- just doing it myself.

So far I have:

1) Kitchen cabinets, bathroom vanities, countertops for both, handles, faucets, sinks, etc- $10,000. All the cabinets are solid maple- no plywood. Countertops are granite. The installer has done kitchens for everyone in my family, but these are off-the-shelf items that are warehouse stocked but nice looking, clean and simple.

2) 17 new windows, all new shingles- $15,000

3) New Septic - $7900 with engineering (trying to get this down a bit more)

4) Carpets/Tiles - $3,600 (this is definately coming down quite a bit more)

5) Hardwood refinishing - $2.50-3.00/sf. I'm doing this all myself- I could install new flooring and have quotes on White Oak at about $2.65/sf. Of course I would be doing the install. I'm going to try to refinish though- I'm just using the install cost as justification.

6) Electrical - $2,000. No way I'd touch this one...


Scottydon't- I understand about not wanting to do things. Part of me is interested in learning how to do all this remodeling- but there is a time issue.
For instance- I want to pull all the trim off the windows and paint it NOW, so that I can just tack it back in place after the replacement windows go in. My thinking is, I'm going to wait 2 weeks for the trim to be taken off by the window installers, and then I'll have to take another week probably working at night to paint it after they re-install it. That carrying for that week is probably around $350.

My dad on the other hand says, "let the installers take it off- if they break it they will be responsible for replacing it". Which may or may not be true (it's been my experience you wind up paying for it in the end when a professional screws up). However, I'm thinking - he's trying to save the cost of $300 in trim (worst case- if we destroyed all of it) and going to spend $350 in carrying costs to do it. Plus, I feel fairly certain I will be more careful and break less of the trim than the installers....who knows. I wouldn't want to put the windows in myself at this point though- not enough time. It's all time vs. cost I guess- you can have one or the other, but not both.

[gwyneth]

Here are a couple of other issues to factor into your calculations--no doubt variants of stuff you know as either realtor or stock investor. But they need to be considered in a new light, and they are intertwined.

First, how does the sales price you are aiming for compare to other houses in the neighborhood? As the old saw goes, the cheapest house in an expensive neighborhood is a MUCH better investment than the most expensive house in a cheap neighborhood.

Hold that thought for a minute. Think about 14 months from now and the possibility that the house has not yet sold and you're heading into fall. What, at that point, will you wish you had done now?

I am thinking about the house next door to me. Everything on the street was built in the early 1900s--bland, small town houses that over the years have been expanded to some degree. The house next door was the personal house of a builder, and by the time his kids were grown and he decided to build a new house from scratch, this house had grown to at least twice the size of any on the street (growth in all directions), including city hall which is down the block.

It sat for almost two years after he moved into the new house and finally sold a few months ago. I don't know how far he had to come down, but midway through the process he'd given up on realtors and dropped the price to a mere 2 to 3 times what the other houses might go for.

It's gorgeous; it's worth even his original asking price. But even at the reduced price, the new owners will have to hold onto it for YEARS to be able to resell it at a profit. (And the builder neighbor lucked out because the new owners are rich horse breeders who needed a place 'in town' and breed dogs, as well, meaning that some of the features that would bother others were ideal for them.)

I'm not sure of the math you'd use, but do an envelope calc (that's what one of my sisters, a big time commercial real estate investment poobah, says they call it in Manhattan) for the worst possible inputs of time and money.

Then do another one that's even worse.

[jseklund]

gwyneth- all I can say is that I like the way you think. A lot. Thanks again!

[jseklund]

OK,
Another question has come up on this. I have decided to refinish the hardwood floors- or at least give it a shot myself. The cheapest guy I could find was $2.75/sq. ft and $40/stair. I am going to get the machine suggested to me earlier, and as suggested use a ROS on the stairs.

The issue is this- there are spindles and corners on the stairs. A round ROS won't get into those areas, obviously. The way I see it I have two options- a 1/4 sheet palm sander, which I think will get the corners but may ding up the trim work on the stairs or a "Mouse" type sander (Black and Decker). To be honest, I don't really like buying B&D tools- they're gimmicky and don't usually do the job in my experience. However, this tool looks like it should work great around the spindles and corners without dinging up surrounding areas. I'm sure it will take a lot longer to sand with this than the ROS too- but I'll just be using it on the detail sanding, not the bulk of the treads.

What tool would you go with for the corners/detail sanding? 1/4 sheet sander, Mouse type detail (I know there are more expensive tools that do the same thing- but it's more expensive!), or something else?

Thanks again!

[gwyneth]

Hey, js,

Are the spindles and corners painted (i.e., to be stripped and sanded off) or just need sanding?

Get yourself some flap sanding attachments for a drill for the former. For the latter, several of the forum members werre posting just a day or two ago about the GMC detail sanders they bought to get another discount at Amazon.

If you post in the classifieds here with this head "Wanted: GMC sander" I bet you'd be able to pay very little--like postage-- for one or more of them. (See the thread starting S*#)($*&Q or such in Bargain Alerts). Or repond to a couple of the posts about them in Bargain Alerts--Jeffrey Schronce said he's got three or four of the sanders on the way, all extraneous.

The GMC ones are more powerful than the Mouse (mine may beat my Hitachi 1/4 sheet) and if you ask nicely, you may be surprised.

[Cheeky]

for painting trim and baseboard: sand it, tape it as close to the wall as possible with at least 1.5" tape, then hit the line where the tape meets the trim with clear glaze.

Benjamin Moore, Behr, etc makes glaze, and it's located by the faux finishes. hit it with some glaze, then paint: start with a thin layer, then 2nd coat it. when you lift off the tape, you will have clean lines.

taping might take a little longer, but will not be quite as long as removing the trim and repairing nail holes, etc.

I wouldn't go crazy with paints. Personally, I like Benjamin Moore, but you can get Behr or Valspar for 1/2 the price. I used Behr for a similar venture, and it worked fine.

as for the floor sanding, dustless is the way to go. did you see these guys on this old house?

if you're going to buy appliances, check with local dealers. Lowes and HD are expensive imo. i recently bought a Bosch range, and Lowes wanted over 2K for it, and a couple local dealers had it for $1550 and $1700.

buy fixtures for the kitchen that look nice but that don't break the bank (i find better deals online than in HD and lowes). people like those little details.

i would buy some HD and Lowes 10% off coupons on ebay. you can use lowes at hd and vv. you will save a considerable amount of money.

[Rand]

While I'm not a "flipper" I have owned several houses, remodeled them and lived in them at least 2 years to avoid the capital gains tax. I've made a lot of money that way.

For the hardwood floors you can use a drum sander. It's much faster. The thing is to keep the sander moving so you don't dig out a divot the size of the drum. 600 sq. ft isn't very big so if the floors are in good shape you could use the orbital floor sander. If they are deeply scratched the orbital will take forever.
A mouse sander will work in corners and tight areas which typically require less sanding because they don't get as much wear.
Use a satin finish on the floor and it will look fine.

I've had good luck with Behr Latex Flat Enamel. It's a little more expensive than the plain Flat Latex but it's well worth it.

In every house I've owned there has always been work performed by a prior owner or contractor that makes me ask. "What the heck was that guy thinking."
The one thing I always try to keep in mind when remodeling is to not create a situation where somebody in the future will ask themselves "What the heck was that guy thinking???"

[Jan]

For inexpensive appliances find the stores that sell to landlords. The simplest models in plain white work fine and will be much less expensive than any other appliance store. The appliances that come with a house are thought of as used and nobody pays much for a used appliance.

If your bathrooms are small get rid of the vanity and use an inexpensive pedestal sink. Nice looking sets can be had for $100 and pedestal sinks make small bathrooms look roomy. If the toilet doesn't shine up nicely you can replace that for $60 complete from HD.

Sherwin Williams Promar 200 is much better paint than Behr for the same price. For your trim use the best trim paint Sherwin Williams has to offer. Painting trim doesn't use a lot of paint and you want the best finish possibly on the trim. While you're at SW buy some top quality trim brushs. If it's possible spray paint the doors. Anybody walking through a house neccessarily takes a close look at doors and trims.

Since you're buying windows you should consider the style of the house and the style of the windows. For example, if six over one is architecturally appropriate spend the extra to get nice dividers for a six over one look. The windows on the back and sides can be plain but the correct front windows can make a house really stand out from it's neighbors.