Finding sprinkler system lines?

[MilDoc]

Moved in to an older home 4 years ago. Great lawn sprinkler but no pipe map available. Now I have to find the pipes to plant new trees.

Any way I can do this? Or do I need a sprinkler company to com out?

[wardprobst]

Doc,

First mark your sprinkler heads and valves on your map. Then remember most installers do straight lines and right angles where lines intersect, then complete the dots. By the way, if you do hit a line, it's not the end of the world.

Good luck,
Dale

[JR]

Any way I can do this? Or do I need a sprinkler company to com out?

Plant a tree. You'll find one of the lines.

As Dale said, it's not the end of the world if you cut a line. They're PVC, so you just glue up a repair segment. They also make PVC unions for just this kind of repair. They're kind pricey at about $6 or $7, but work like a champ.

JR

[greencat]

I moved into an older home and called the sprinkler company for a map. Now even with the map I hit the lines. You will soon learn sprinkle repair. I just did the annual fix up. Every year there is something to do but its better than dragging a hose. I would like to hook up a drip line to water the hanging baskets. Good Luck.

[gsmittle]

Moved in to an older home 4 years ago. Great lawn sprinkler but no pipe map available. Now I have to find the pipes to plant new trees.

Any way I can do this? Or do I need a sprinkler company to com out?

Can you do the thing with the forked stick?

g.

[just4funsies]

I do sprinkler plans for a living (BIG ones), and I can tell you that absolutely NO system is installed exactly the way the plan shows. You'll be lucky if just the mainlines and valves are CLOSE to the way they're shown. If you have valve boxes on your zone valves, their locations, along with those of your supply connection, pump, backflow preventer, etc. will give some surface clues where the mainlines run (and they're the most important, anyway). Also, if you have electric remote zone valves, you can rent a tracer unit that will help you follow the wiring from your timer out. This wiring usually is run in the same trench as the mainline pipe. Otherwise, unless the pipes are shallow enough that you can use a pointed probe stick to follow them, you're gonna pretty much be relegated to digging potholes all over your yard.

[Tom Miller]

1. Dig your hole
2. Turn on sprinkler system
3. Where the water gushes out is where the line was.

You might replace steps 2 & 3 with visual inspection, but it's less dramatic.

Seriously, though, I wouldn't plant the trees to fit around the irrigation -- put them where they look best. And if the piping is in the way, you'll have to re-plumb it a bit anyway. It really is easy.

If the tree position isn't so critical, you could mark heads and make a reasonable guesses about layout. Keep in mind that if the piping was laid by a trenching machine, making arced turns is easier than stopping to install a 90 degree joint by hand.

Regards,
Tom

[JimD]

I am interested in the comment about a tracer that can be rented. The landscaper that put in my sprinklers scattered the valves around the yard. I have one that will not work and blows the fuse every time the controller tries to open it. I am thinking it needs replaced but I cannot find it. I live in SC and the lines are real shallow so I traced them (by digging holes starting at sprinkler heads that do not go on and going all the way back to the supply line from the city water system) but I still cannot find the valve. The bermuda must have covered it up real well. I hate to dig up the entire length of the circuit. Maybe I should ask at the good sprinkler supply place close to me about a tracer? I do not know where the wire to this controller is but I know at least one place the wires come under the driveway so I can probably trace all those wires if I have something that can look through the soil. Would a metal detector work? Is there a special device made for sprinkler systems?

Jim

[AndyF]

how to identify what valve controls what zone?

how do you figure out what valve controls what zone when you don't have the installation diagram?

I have Toro valves with screw-type solenoids on top of the valve.


The problem I'm tracing is when my Zone 4 *tries* to come on (i get water out of some heads and others barely pop up), Zone 3 stays on.

I'm guessing it's solenoid related, but I'm not sure how to test them much less identify what valve controls what zone...


thanks
andy

[Tom Miller]

how do you figure out what valve controls what zone when you don't have the installation diagram?

I have Toro valves with screw-type solenoids on top of the valve.


The problem I'm tracing is when my Zone 4 *tries* to come on (i get water out of some heads and others barely pop up), Zone 3 stays on.

I'm guessing it's solenoid related, but I'm not sure how to test them much less identify what valve controls what zone...


thanks
andy

Is Zone 3 on all the time as long as there's water pressure to the valve?

My experience is limited, and only with Hunter brand, but I've had similar trouble before. My Hunter valves can be turned on "manually" by unscrewing the solenoid about a quarter turn. Basically, this backs off the solenoid plunger that is keeping the valve closed.

I have the service come out each fall to blow out the lines, and I think they prefer to operate the solenoids manually like this. They failed to screw one of the solenoids back in, so as soon as I turned on the main water supply this spring, I was watering the front yard! When I used the controller to turn on other zones, the front zone stayed on, too, and wouldn't turn off 'til I figured out what was going on.

So, that's one way to determine which zone goes to which solenoid. If for any reason the solenoid works loose a little, it can turn on a zone as long as there's water pressure, regardless of the state of the controller. That's one way you might get two zones going at once like you're seeing.

Another thing to check is the wiring in your valve box (usually in-ground). There may be some shorting out between wires. You can also note the color of the wires on each solenoid, and reference back to the controller to determine which solenoid goes to which zone.

It could also be that the solenoid is not operating properly. They're very easy to replace, and not too expensive.

Regards,
Tom

[LCHIEN]

how do you figure out what valve controls what zone when you don't have the installation diagram?

I have Toro valves with screw-type solenoids on top of the valve.


The problem I'm tracing is when my Zone 4 *tries* to come on (i get water out of some heads and others barely pop up), Zone 3 stays on.

I'm guessing it's solenoid related, but I'm not sure how to test them much less identify what valve controls what zone...


thanks
andy

i solved this for a friend of mine last week.

basically the zones come on in the order of the zone controls.
one cycle will be Zone1 followed by zone 2 then 3, 4, 5,6, 7 and 8. for example.

There will probably be color coded wires going to STA1 thru STA8 on your timer.
You can identify the same color going to the valve box, this will help identify the station.

Check the solenoid, there's a little knob on top you can turn about 2 or three turns loose and it will manually turn on the valve. Use this to check and make sure the zone has water pressure. and which sprinker heads are controlled by this valve.
If a section is not working then you have one of 3 possible problems
1) timer zone output not working
2) bad wiring
3) bad solenoid valve.

program a spare zone and move the wire from the bad zone to the spare zone at your timer. This will check the zone output or at least get you one that works.

Sometimes there is a spare wire going to the solenoid valve box from the timer, you can substitute a wire if you suspect ist a broken wire underground which will be a ***** to find where ist proken unless you see some recent signs of digging... The wires will be color coded so a loose wire in the timer box and a loose wire in the vale box the same color is probably a spare.

If its not 1 or 2 then its probably 3, you can get replacements at Loes, HD, etc.

[SteveR]

You can identify the same color going to the valve box, this will help identify the station.

Great info. thanks!....I was going to try and find/identify the zone(s) by feeling the water running in the pipes by ea. soleniod. May still have to if they are not colored......

..what about a situation where the zone turns on like it is supposed to, but will not turn off when it should. I have to go and shut off the main water supply to the sprinklers.... Bad solenoid or crossed wires maybe??? All the other zones turn on/off great.

Thankyou
Steve

[Tom Miller]

..what about a situation where the zone turns on like it is supposed to, but will not turn off when it should. I have to go and shut off the main water supply to the sprinklers.... Bad solenoid or crossed wires maybe??? All the other zones turn on/off great.

That sounds like a bad solenoid, and there could be a number of things wrong with it. Sounds like it doesn't have the oomph to shut off against the water pressure, but if you take away the water pressure (close the main), it reseats and stays closed, right? That could be a bad spring, or more likely a gummy plunger piston. If I were you, I'd probably just swap it out, rather than try to diagnose the problem on a ~$10 part.

Regards,
Tom

[just4funsies]

Let's address a couple problems per post. You can tell if a valve is energized by lightly holding the tip of a screwdriver against the top of the solenoid. If there is current flowing, the screwdriver will hop around a little on the solenoid. Also, you can pierce the solenoid wires (on the solenoid side of the wire splice, where the wire is stranded) with a tack, push-pin or safety pin, and then use a voltmeter, test light or spare solenoid to test voltage. Seal the pinhole up afterwards using a dab of wire-splicing compound available from the local sprinkler supply house. The stuff comes in a toothpaste tube, is usually bright blue (in the bizz, it's referred to as "smurf-sh*t" or "blue death"), and it creates a solvent bond to the wire jacket.

Wire tracing can be easy if your supply house has a tracer unit for rent. There are several types of units, many made by Progressive Electronics. The most useful is the Model 521. Most tracers have a transmitter that is hooked up to the wire at the timer, and a receiver that you take out into the field to trace the wire. Most good units will also find the valve itself, because the solenoid coil acts like a transmitter antenna, giving you a "hot-spot" reading on the receiver.

Note that not all valve wires are color coded, although they will be if the installer used multi-conductor cable (it's kinda like thermostat wire). If individual wires were used, you are more likely to find that the valve common wire (which is daisy-chained to one side of all the solenoids) is a color of its own (usually white), and all the individual zone wires (which go only to the solenoid on the valve they control) will all be of a like color that is different than the valve common wire (usually red or black, but could be many others).

Some notes about troubleshooting: A good 24VAC solenoid will read between 15-30 ohms of resistance. Less than 15, and it's shorted, more than 30 and it's open (rules of thumb). If you want to measure valve voltage at the timer, use a test light or a needle-type voltmeter. These will load the circuit enough to get a good reading, whereas many digital voltmeters are so low-load (useful in digital circuits, but not here) that they will give you a false and misleading reading of the "phantom" voltage typically found across the output triacs used in most digital timers, even when the zone is not activated. Also, do not "spark" live output wires or terminals in digital timers, as you can knock out the programming in some types, or do permanent damage, such as kill the microprocessor, or burn the fusible link that guards the transformer in the unit. This fusible link is like a fuse, built into the transformer, and it is NOT serviceable... If you blow it, you replace the transformer. It is important to note that many of the above pratfalls do NOT exist in a mechanical type timer, but the fusible link in the transformer DOES.

I'm gonna go chug a couple brews now, and I'll sign in a little later and talk about what goes on inside a zone valve...

[Tom Slick]

I bought one of those tiny honda roto-tillers. it has the uncanny ability to find every sprinkler line within a 1 foot radius! it will even pull them up for you to inspect the broken sections.