Finish Question

[mikedude]

How are modern day furniture manufacturers finishing pieces? I'm in the process of learning about finishes, stains, oils, etc... and I've been experimenting with wood easy to obtain at HI stores. Once you know a little bit about the process you start looking around the house at furniture we have bought and trying to figure out how it is made. We have an armoire that was imported from somewhere overseas. It is a deep cherry/mahogany color, but when scratched it is some kind of white wood. You can barely see the grain through the finish.

It seems to me like modern furniture finishing is using some kind of spray on paint/stain on some kind of cheap white wood. Further examination of other cheaper pieces around the house looks like some kind of manufactured board with a similar "rich" looking finish.

Doesn't seem like there is much real wood or exotic wood used in furniture much any more. Can anyone with knowledge about the industry comment on modern processes? Thanks, Mike

[LCHIEN]

There's probably four categories of furniture now made:

1. PArticle board with vinyl (solid color and simulated woodgrain) veneers.
2. particle board with real, nice but not super expensive wood (oak, birch, beech etc) veneers
3. Real wood with expensive (e.g. walnut, cherry, teak, or exotic) wood veneers
4. Real solid hardwood furniture - oak, walnut, teak, cherry and exotics. With this the wood can be worked and formed into more shapes

Mixtures can be used - e.g. solid wood for worked formed parts (like routed edgeing), with
expensive matching veneered wood to save money on the slab parts and hide the edges.
Obviously going from 1 to 4 increases the price significantly at each step, stuff from #1 can be seen in Target and Walmart, the last category can be thousands of $$$ per piece.


Those with veneers which are not super expensive can be made to appear more expensive by staining them to match the more expensive woods.

Those with nicer veneers can simply be varnish or oiled to make them appear very attractive withour staining, as attractive as solid wood.

that's how I see it.

[JimD]

Mike,

I have at least a end table or something that I made in every room of our house except the dining room. The furniture in this room is all purchased as "solid cherry". I leaned back in one of the chairs a few years ago and broke the top of the chair. I learned it was made of a white wood - maybe birch, it wasn't maple and seem harder than poplar - and had been doweled together. All this only confirms what you already knew, however.

I think some of the finish is staining but some is glazing. The finish on the chair I broke (and glued back up well enough it's tough to figure out which one it is) had not penetrated noticably. That plus the lack of visible grain suggests to me that they used some sort of semi-transparent glaze. I probably makes sense for manufacturers to do this because much of the public would object to the normal range of wood color that you would see without hiding it and it is probably asking too much to ask them to carefully select pieces of wood so they would match reasonably well (like we would).

In the end, it doesn't seem much like wood furniture to me. I do not even like to stain - I like to see exactly what the wood looks like.

Jim

[mikedude]

Thanks for the info guys. My goal is to make a lot of things for our home much like you mentioned Jim. I'm learning, watching David Marks on the DIY channel. I like a good wood with oil only like you said, but recently I got a couple of projects for friends. They asked for stains matching things they already have. So I bought a book on stains, got some inexpensive wood and and General Finish stains from Woodcraft. So I'm experimenting, learning, etc...

I have broken a dining room chair the same way and I also need to repair it. My impression is if you can find real wood in a furniture store it is white wood stained or glazed to look like fine wood. We got our dining room chairs and an entertainment armoire from stores that make no bones about where they get their pieces. They are importing them from overseas where they are made by people probably working for pennies a day. When you consider that along with it's some inexpensive white wood it probably costs them more to ship them here than it does to make them.

A related story, we were in a Badcock furniture store looking at a couch my wife wanted. I chatted with the sales person about a $300 bookcase and asked what kind of wood it was. She said it was total particle board with a simulated grain finish. She was actually proud that they were getting better at making particle board look like real wood. Neat eh?

Is the general public as clueless as it seems about nice wood and fine furniture?

[vaking]

I went through a similar stage recently - looking at store furniture, how it is built and out of what. I have discovered few things that surprised me:
I actualy have some respect for Target - some of their things (not all) are made without false pretense to artistic value but simple functional things made of real wood and plywood. Telephone stand, night stand, drawer for hanging files made with wood frame (not much wood but it is real) and 1/4" plywood for door frames, 1/2" plywood for drawers.
Much more expensive stores - Levitz, Hoffman Koose (now dead) sell veneered particle board furniture for obscene money. Not long ago I have seen a very nice-looking (red mahogany), Italian made wardrobe for MSRP about $10,000 at Bloomingdales furniture. Imagine my surprise when I realised it was veneered particle board. I have to say - public does not know or does not care. For myself I prefer to buy an older scratched piece made of real wood and restore it rather than buy a veneer over particle board.

[mikedude]

I assumed it kind of worked that way, sounds like the general public is getting fooled. The way I figure (Southern term, it means to analyze, make assumptions, etc..)one place our craftsmanship is recognized is the antique world. Only it's not our work but the work of others 100 or 200 years ago made in a time before veneers and particle board were possible. I've seen antique shows and they have pieces made of solid, good quality wood. The value they place on them depends on how old they are, the shape they are in, the finish, etc...

I imagine in 20 or 30 years that $10K Bloomingdales bed frame will be thrown out. A $300 PB bookcase from Badcock probably won't last 10 years. So I reckon (another Southern term, means to extrapolate or infer)we live in a world of disposable cheaply made furniture.

The good news is the pieces we make now will be family heirlooms and otherwise valueable to people who live in the future. We are the Craftsman of hundreds of years from now (Lord willing)that people will be hanging on to. Make sure you put some identifying marking on the piece perhaps with the date. That will make it easier for the antique appraisers in a few hundred years.

Does anyone recommend a particular brand of stains or other type of color matching for my coworkers projects? I bought General Finish brand stain, pre-stain, satin and gloss top coats. I heard Minwax Gel stains were good. Thanks, Mike

p.s. David Marks did a show this past week on finishes. It was pretty similar to the book I read but it was enjoyable to see it on video. It was on sometime earlier this week. I just watched it today off my Tivo.

[LarryG]

quote:Originally posted by mikedude

So I bought a book on stains, got some inexpensive wood and and General Finish stains from Woodcraft. So I'm experimenting, learning, etc...

If your book is not "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Bob Flexner, you need to add that one to your library. It's considered THE title on this subject. Flexner explains how various types of finishes work, offers tips and techniques for finishing different kinds of woods, and debunks a lot of myths.

This book will cost you less than 12 bucks from amazon.com, but is worth that many many times over.

[mikedude]

Thanks for the info. I don't think that is the title, I will check it when I get home. I discovered real quick staining was my weakness. The planning, cutting, routing, all comes fairly easily for me, and I can do 3 or 4 coats of oil no problem. I get suckered in to these freebe jobs for my buddies who say stuff like this. "I want it to look like maple but I don't want to spend the money for actual maple. How about pine? How much is that?" So thus my deviation from a purist mentality while I try to make pine look like maple. It will be a good learning experience for me. Mike

[AceTKK]

Hehe, I like the breakdown of Southern slang for all our Yankee friends out there. Having grown up in Texas it never occured to me that others might not know what figured / reckoned meant.

[Pappy]

A couple of thoughts that came to me as I read thru the comments.

1. Veneers date back to the Egyptions and does not necessarily mean a lesser quality. I am working on 2 pieces that probaly date to the 20's or 30's and both use veneered panels. One of them is Birdseye Maple and the framing is all solid Maple. The other one is Mahogany veneer and the frame work is a 'lesser' wood stained to match.

2. The finish is added to preserve and protect the wood. Shellac or oils were commonly used. Would early craftsmen have used these finishes if laquers or urethanes had been available to them? It makes sense to me to use the best finish reasonably available to protect the things I make.

[mikedude]

I agree Pappy. Were it not for these "cheap" coworkers of mine I would not deviate from the oils and fine wood. They are pulling me down to the level of mass produced furniture. (You all probably just shuttered like I did.) I will learn a thing or two from the experience so I can make items for other frugal people in the future. I'm making headway with my General Finish products after many coats. I just about have pine and poplar looking like Maple. Thanks, Mike.

[tmaceroli]

Mike,

There was a good article in one of the woodworking magazines, in a recent month. It was about the finishing techniques that would make one wood species look like another, e.g. make poplar look like maple or cherry or some other combo. When I get home I'll look for it and let you know. You can probably find a copy at the library. Unless you're really interested, it's probably not worth ordering a back issue.

[tmaceroli]

OK, I found it. It was the February/March issue of Wood Magazine. The article was titled, "Finishing magic - turn bargain boards into high-dollar stock." In the process of going through my magazines, I found several articles that I'd either missed or that I would like to re-read. Not a bad turn of events....

[mikedude]

Thanks Tony, I will look for that article. I'm sure there is some good stuff in there. I think the thing to do is get some wood, get some stains and have at it! I have one piece of pine I'm finishing up the 3 top coats of Satin on right now. I'm pretty sure it is what one guy is looking for. The other is Poplar with a Honey stain, I got up to 3 coats but it still didn't match the cabinet door a guy brought me. I'm gonna keep putting it on there! Thanks, Mike