Buying Lumber (Noob question)

**JimD** · 02-14-2005, 12:08 PM

Dan,

S2S means "surfaced two sides". S4S means "surfaced four sides". I cannot help you with FAS-Face or FEQ. The difference between surfaced on four sides and two sides is the edges. Most hardwood is S2S and you have to remove the rough edges (the faces are planned). It should work for mouldings. It won't necessarily be totally flat or straight but nothing made of solid wood can be guaranteed to stay flat or straight.

Jim

**crokett** · 02-14-2005, 12:08 PM

S2S and S4S are not grades. They refer to the number of finished sides. S2S is surfaced 2 sides which means they run it through a planer, but the edges are left rough. S4S means surfaced 4 sides which means it is planed on both sides and jointed on both edges.

FAS is firsts and seconds - good quality lumber
FEQ is a new one to me. google says it is first european quality, better than FAS.

**LarryG** · 02-14-2005, 12:12 PM

I think "Face" usually means one face (flat side) of the board qualifies as FAS whereas the back (opposite flat side) is of lesser quality.

FEQ is a new one on me, too.

**sawsall** · 02-14-2005, 12:26 PM

Thanks for your replies!

How about QTR/Rift? I'm seeing this description for thicker pieces (usually about 1" and up). What does this mean?

Theres also another price list from theworkbench.com that has there wood priced as rough lumber. Does that mean it is not planed?

Also what are your opinions on white oak versus red oak? The reason I ask is because theworkbench has white oak listed as being a soft wood. I need something durable that is going to last the test of time and don't want a soft wood. How does pine hold up?

Thanks for all of your help!!

Dan

**Otter** · 02-14-2005, 12:33 PM

David got the FAS and FEQ on the money

"FAS (First and Seconds) - The FAS grade will provide the user with long, wide, clear cuttings. Best suited for high quality furniture, interior trim, millwork, and solid wood moldings. The FAS grade includes a range of boards which yield from 831/3% (10/12ths) to 100% clear wood in cuttings at least 3� wide 7� long or 4� wide by 5� long." - http://www.ont-woodlot-assoc.org/sw_lumbergrades.html

FEQ is what I try to buy, if I can find it. Honduras Mahogany, Teak, English Walnut and woods like that. I think (meaning "not sure") is has to have a higher yeild than FAS.

Just stay way from commons as your waist % goes way up on them.

**LarryG** · 02-14-2005, 12:56 PM

"QTR/Rift" has to do with the way the log is cut up into boards.

Quarter sawn lumber must have grain that is between 60 and 90deg to the board's face. As you look at the end of the board, the lines of the annular rings run approximately vertical.

Rift sawn lumber has grain that is between 30 and 60deg to the face.

Plain sawn lumber has grain that runs up to 30deg from the face. Also known as flat sawn. Most lumberyard lumber is plain sawn, which is why it cups so badly.

I would guess that in this particular case, "Qtr/Rift" means you'd get lumber that is a mixture of quarter sawn and rift sawn.

Rough lumber means just that ... rough. Not planed, not edge jointed.

White oak a softwood??? That's gotta be a typo as it is most definitely a hardwood. BTW, those terms -- hardwood, softwood -- have nothing to do with how hard or soft the wood is. Hardwood comes from trees that lose their leaves, softwood comes from evergreens. Balsa, one of the "softest" woods, is actually a hardwood.

You said you're going to be starting with moldings and door casings. Will they be painted? If so, use something like poplar, which takes paint well and should be a ton cheaper than oak.

**sawsall** · 02-15-2005, 07:29 AM

Larry and all,

I will be leaving these unpainted. Staining and a few coats of poly. Right now I'm trying to price the wood. White oak is what I had planned since I think it will match the natural color of the floor better than red oak will.

The purchasing guide is a bit confusing to me which is why I posted the question. If I decide to purchase white oak it appears I will have to pay extra for the planing and S4S beings that it is rough sawn which may make it worth my while to just buy it from home depot. They charge 31 bucks for a 1 x 6 x 12' of red oak. I think that is a comparable price to the lumber yard being that it is already s4s and the grain appears to be pretty nice. I would take red oak over white if it will be easier to work with.

What is the concensus here for moldings? What would you do if you had to make this choice?
Does anyone think that home depots wood prices are good/not good? I'm in Michigan and that ends up being about 2.59 a foot for 1 x 6 (actually 3/4 x 5 1/2).

Obviously I would like to get it for as cheap as I can without comprimising quality.LL Johnson Lumber Mfg. has a listing on there website (theworkbench.com) for $2.44 per linear foot of white oak per board foot. I figured I'd get it and rip it to width myself on the bt, then go to town with the router and then begin staining and poly stages. But I've never ordered rough lumber (or any for that matter) and don't know what to expect.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Dan

**crokett** · 02-15-2005, 08:24 AM

To compare prices, you have to compare price per boardfoot, not per linear foot. To figure board feet, multiply the length (in inches) x width (in inches) x thickness (in inches) then divide by 12.

When you actually price out wood from the big box stores it works out to somewhere around 5.00/board foot, IIRC. If you are being charged that by a wood supply place, that seems excessive. I can get it here for a little over 3 bucks and it is actually an inch thick, not 3/4" like at the BORG.

check out www.hardwoodstore.com. They are in NC but will ship - not sure if it makes it cheaper for you or not. I know they give volume discounts.

**LarryG** · 02-15-2005, 08:28 AM

quote:Originally posted by sawsall

What is the concensus here for moldings? What would you do if you had to make this choice?

IMO that's entirely a function of what it takes to satisfy YOU with respect to how close the match is. I have known people who insisted on a certain species even though another could be substituted, simply because they themselves would "always know" there was a difference, even if that difference could not be seen.

I don't sense that you're one of those, that you're instead just looking for a good match (like most of us), but it's still something only your eye can judge. Your decision will involve not only white vs. red oak, but which particular pieces of white or red oak.

One observation that may or may not help: from a design standpoint, choosing materials that do not match but which complement each other is better than a almost-but-not-quite match. IOW, if there's going to be a difference, make it look like you meant it, not like you tried hard but still missed.

quote

oes anyone think that home depots wood prices are good/not good?

The big box stores, Rockler, Woodcraft, etc. are all regarded as being mondo expensive and therefore places to buy wood only as a last resort, or when you need small quantities. But many of us here own jointers and thickness planers, which makes buying cheaper, rough-sawn lumber viable. (Given the price difference between rough and S4S lumber, one can save enough money to pay for both of those tools in very short order.) So you have to take everything into consideration.

quote:Obviously I would like to get it for as cheap as I can without comprimising quality.

You probably won't be surprised to read that there are a whole lot of people already standing in THAT line. [8D]

quote:LL Johnson Lumber Mfg. has a listing on there website (theworkbench.com) for $2.44 per linear foot of white oak per board foot. [snip] But I've never ordered rough lumber (or any for that matter) and don't know what to expect.

First of all, you have a conflict with that price. Is it $2.44 per linear foot, and if so, of what size; or is it $2.44 per board foot?

Second, if you know what kind of cut a bandsaw produces, that's more or less what you can expect to get when you buy rough lumber. You'll need to dress the surfaces somehow (unless, of course, you want a somewhat rustic look). Hand planes and card scrapers and sandpaper are one approach if you have those tools, the skill to use them, and lots of time. A jointer and a thickness planer is what most of us would use. If you don't own those tools, and don't wish to purchase them at this time, you will need to either buy dressed lumber, or take your rough lumber to a cabinet shop and pay them to dress it for you, or rustle up a woodworking buddy who owns those tools and will either do the work for you or let you use his tools.

I think maybe you're in the process of learning one of the most frustrating lessons about woodworking: good tools may be expensive but in time the bleeding stops and the pain subsides; but the high cost of quality materials is a sting that goes on and on, and has to be faced every time one starts a new project.

**sawsall** · 02-15-2005, 12:01 PM

Okay first off...

I have access to a planar, my FIL has the ryobi and wants to sell it to me for $100. I could get that if it would offset the cost of my materials that much.

I have no idea how the joiner would help me in this scenario, would you mind elaborating on what a joiner is used for and how it could apply to my situation?

LL Johnson lumber has white oak for $2.44 a board foot in both 3/4 and 1" thicknesses. I apologize I was referencing 2 different local lumber yards in previous posts. The one I am most interested in is 2.44 a board foot from johnsons.

The way I see it at that price I can get 100 board feet for 244 dollars and I should have in the neighborhood of 180 linear feet of 6 inch moldings (with a 10% waste included). Is this reasonable?

I know they come in random lengths and widths which kind of makes me wonder about it.

I think I need to take a trip to a lumber yard. To see for myself if it is indeed quality enough to make into moldings.

Dan

**LarryG** · 02-15-2005, 12:44 PM

If you're serious about woodworking, and that Ryobi planer is in good operating condition ... for $100, you should jump on it.

A jointer (not joiner) goes hand in hand with a thickness planer. Opinions are mixed on which is more important, but most experienced woodworkers will tell you a jointer is a higher priority than a planer. To mill a board four-square (flatten and true up all four sides, with the two faces parallel to each other, the two edges parallel to each other, and 90deg corners all around), the usual sequence of events goes like this:

1. Flatten one wide face of the board on the jointer, a process usually referred to as face jointing.

2. Place that flattened face against the jointer's fence (IOW, turn the board up on edge) and true up one narrow edge, a process known as edge jointing or, more simply, jointing. At this point you have a board with one flat face and one flat edge that are at 90deg to each other.

3. Run the board through the planer with the previously-flattened wide face down, so that the planer's knives are removing material from the still-rough face on top. This process is called thickness planing and what it does is make the board a uniform thickness, with this second face parallel to the face that was previously flattened on the jointer.

4. Run the last narrow edge through the jointer to square it up. At this point all four edges have been surfaced and all corners should be 90deg.

If the board is wider than it needs to be, Step 4 is often preceded by a pass through the table saw, to get rid of any grossly excess material (if the cut-off piece is wide enough, it may become another board.) Also, steps 3 and 4 are sometimes reversed.

At this point some people ask why they need both tools, why they can't just use a planer, or a jointer, to flatten both faces. The reason is because a jointer can make the two wide faces of a board flat, but not necessarily parallel to each other; whereas a planer can make the two faces parallel to each other, but not necessarily flat.

Ten percent waste is cutting it way too fine. It will depend on what kind of random lengths and widths you get, but 50% waste is more like it. Keep in mind that when you buy 4/4 lumber (pronounced "four quarters") you will get a board that measures 1" thick in the rough but when surfaced will net out at 3/4". So you're losing 25% of your board footage right off the bat. Even so, believe it not, buying rough lumber and dressing it yourself is cheaper in the long run than buying S4S (assuming you don't pay too much for your rough lumber, of course).

A trip to a lumber yard -- or better yet, a sawmill -- would be an excellent idea. If there's an experienced woodworker you could get to tag along and explain things as you go, that'd be a big help. All of us here are happy to help, but online coaching is no substitute for on-the-spot expertise.

**Kristofor** · 02-15-2005, 07:40 PM

quote:Originally posted by crokett

To compare prices, you have to compare price per boardfoot, not per linear foot. To figure board feet, multiply the length (in inches) x width (in inches) x thickness (in inches) then divide by 12.

I think you've got a math typo there, if you're using inches for all of the dimensions then it's devide by 144 not 12. If you're using length in feet then it would be by 12. Of course the reality check would probably catch an error of a factor of 12.

Sawsall, so if I read your description correctly, the Johnson lumber company is about half the cost per board foot compared to the Borg. That's about the difference around here too.

Kristofor.

**LCHIEN** · 02-16-2005, 05:15 AM

i don't know how you get from 100 board feet to 180 linear feet of 6".

Board feet is a volume measurement. Your "yield" will depend greatly upon the width(s) of the board you get. If you need 6" wide boards and the boards you get are 10" you're going to be ripping them down and throwing away 40% of the wood.

Furthermore the 3/4" thick material counts as 1" for its roughcut thickness.

**sawsall** · 02-16-2005, 05:48 AM

Lchien,

You are correct. If I happen to get all 10" boards then I will be losing a lot of wood. I have no idea what I would be getting. Which is why I'm asking the experts.

FYI I just went to HD last night and seen the 1x6x12' boards there. They are 33.92 each. Which happens to be s4s. which also happens to be about 5.65 a bf and 2.82 a lf. I think I see a trip to the lumber yard in my near future...

As i've said in an earlier post johnsons has 1x6 s2s for 2.00 a lf and 4.00 a bf.

And something I was thinking of last night that I could use a confirmation on from the experts here, do I really need s4s for molding? the top edge will be routed, and the bottom edge will be hidden by a quarter round molding..any thoughts?

Everyone on this board has been a great help. Although I haven't been posting in six months I often come here to read of others experiences with this hobby and always here there are very helpful people. Thanks again everyone for your help.

Dan

Buying Lumber (Noob question)

Buying Lumber (Noob question)

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