Looking for a new TS

[Officeronin]

Ten years ago, I was newly married to a pretty blonde and shiny new honey-do list. With numerous projects that suggested a TS and very little $$ in my pocket, I purchased a bottom of the line TS from craftsman. I learned an important lesson -- if you are expecting a modicum of accuracy, pay the money for it.

Now, I am still working on that honey-do list, but have a bit more cash to get a better TS, with these parameters:

1. space is a major issue.
2. cutting sheets of plywood is important, but so are joinery cuts.
3. multi-use is my friend. The router table being built into the table saw means two tools take the space of one (see #1).
4. cost is an issue, but there is flexibility, here

So, given those parameters, I talked to my dad, and he showed me his BT3000, and said he was very happy with it. Great! So, off I went to amazon to order one... I am guessing you can see the problem.

1. So, I am guessing that I can only get a BT3x by taking a chance on craigslist or something. True?

2. I read something about a follow-on that Sears made. Can someone give me more information on that? I went through the Sears website and saw nothing.

3. If you had to replace your BT3x with another TS, what would you get?

Thanks in advance for your replies!

Officeronin

[toolguy1000]

in the interest of full disclosure, i will state up front that i do not own a bt3000 and really don't like the saw. i acquired one from a poster on the woodnet forum for a neightbor of mine and help him set it up. all i can say is it isn't my cup of tea. but this, i believe, is the sears version of the bt3xxx (someone jump in if i'm mistaken):

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-professional-15-amp-10inch-portable-table-saw/p-00921829000P?prdNo=5&blockNo=5&blockType=G5

bt3XXXs are occasionally available on CL for <$200. here is what i don't care for in the bt3:

1. right tilt

2. no CI table and the table is in pieces

3. light weight (too much plastic)

4. there are a few threads on here that speak to difficulty in effecting some adjustments.

others will jump in with the benefits (riving knife, flexibility, portability, etc) but i'm more of a "dark side" TS user. and there are CL deals on older emerson electric built craftsman TSs that can be made extremely serviceable for <$200. good luck whatever way you choose to go.

[mpc]

For cutting sheets of plywood...
Do you really want to do that on the table saw? If yes, then either:
* consider one with an extra-large table top and some sort of add-on outfeed table.
* plan on making infeed and outfeed supports for just about any other saw, including the BT3 series.

The issue is being able to LIFT heavy plywood and control it. It doesn't take much lateral motion at the end of an 8 foot long sheet to get the piece twisted against the blade which leads to burn marks, poor cut quality, possibly stalling out the saw (burning out motors, popping fuses/breakers, busting drive belts depending on the saw), etc. Whenever the workpiece moves once a portion is cut the edges of the kerf can snag the blade leading to kickback and the problems I listed above.

If you have a decent hand-held circular saw, consider making a simple sawboard instead. MUCH easier to handle, and I think a lot safer too. A sawboard is just a flat board (Masonite, thin plywood, whatever, about 8 feet long and roughly a foot wide) glued/screwed to a decent straight edge (1x6 works fine) and then you run the circular saw base against the 1x6, trimming the edge of the flat board. Now the edge of the flat board is a perfect reference edge to line up with measurement marks on whatever sheet goods you want to cut... and it acts as a "zero clearance" throat plate when making cuts on workpieces. Plus, when using a sawboard, those sheet goods can be on sawhorses, a couple 2x4s on the garage floor, whatever. You're not lifting/moving the sheet to cut it, instead just a circular saw. With a good blade a circular saw will make a fine cut. Also, when mounting the 1x6 to the long skinny Masonite board... mount the 1x6 near the center. Then you can run your router along the other edge so the sawboard doubles as a router guide as well - great for making grooves/dados in sheet goods or larger glued-up panels.

The BT3 saws work "differently" than traditional saws due to the sliding miter table in place of a regular miter slot. Though there are options to add a traditional miter slot if you want/need it. The "issues" folks find with the BT3s are:
1: they work best with thin-kerf blades since the BT3 motor isn't as strong as big cabinet saw motors.
2: with the aluminum frame, the saw body isn't as rigid as an 800 pound monster... if you have a lumpy floor you may find the saw alignment drifts/changes depending on where you put the saw. Replacing the factory metal legs with a storage box can stiffen the whole shebang a ton.
3: aluminum top = magnet style featherboards and other magnet based accessories don't work.

BT3 advantages:
1: fence locks at both the front and rear - many fences do NOT lock at the rear. If you attach featherboards to the fence (pushing the work downwards) it'll work on the BT3; on other saws the fence may lift at the rear instead.
2: true riving knife - a safety item that BT3s have had since they came on the market; something that almost all saws are migrating to today.
3: sliding miter table: once adjusted and you get the hang of using it, it really does work well. Some folks though don't like the fact that it sits slightly higher than the rest of the saw table top.
4: fence rails attach to the saw body with simple lever clamps - you can move them left/right as necessary to expand the "width" of the saw depending on what you need to cut. With the expansion kit, you can easily add extra rails to make the saw very wide.

mpc

[JoeyGee]

Welcome aboard. It doesn't matter what TS you end up with, please stick around. You will find not only nearly limitless great advice, but some pretty friendly people, too.

I have a BT3100 and love it. It's not for everyone, though. If I had the budget, I would have a bigger saw with a CI top, but I don't and I love the BT just the same. I have not been let down once with it.

Space is everyone's concern, and it's relative. Some would call my 20x20 "shop" that I share with two vehicles tiny, while others call it a palace. Everything is on wheels, so I can fit quite a bit in. Almost any saw (contractor or above) can be fit with a router table in place of one of the wings. The BT just makes it easier with the top already set up for it.

I don't like to cut full sheets of ply on any TS, but that's me. I prefer to break them down first. Doing that makes it easier on any TS. I've done plenty of joinery work on my BT and have been happy with it. Make sure whatever saw you choose has a good fence.

I would do some homework--searching on this site will give PLENTY of info. Check CL and see what you can find.

Good luck and welcome to the insanity--woodworking in general, not just this site

[Knottscott]

The Craftsman 21829 is actually made by TTI/Ryobi, is a direct descendant of the BT3000 and BT3100, and has many interchangeable parts. It also includes a router table. It goes on sale in the $400-$450 range.

With full understanding about space constraints, I think a full size heavy saw with a belt drive induction motor has several advantages. Saws like the Grizzly G0715P, G0661, Ridgid R4512, Cman 21833, Steel City 35990, and Porter Cable PCB270TS are worth some consideration IMHO....~ $450-$900. These are hybrid saws and modern contractor saws. Since all house the motors inside the enclosure, they don't take up as much space as the older full size contractor saws that had a motor hanging off the back.

A good used saw is always an option.

[LCHIEN]

the sears 21829 or 21828 are same basic saw sold previously as the BT3000 and BT3100, with a sears label and with a bunch of minor primarily cosmetic changes and a popup wheeled base.
If you liked the way the BT3000 worked then the 21829 will probably please you too.

I have used a BT3000 for more then 12 years and have enjoyed it, you might want to get and read my FAQ which answers many common questions about this line of saws.

as for breaking down plywood, a saw with a large and wide top and outfeed tables can do the job, but often its better to put such a piece on a set of sawhorses and make the first cut with a clamp on guide and a circular saw... a 3/4" piece of 8x4 ply or MDF can be pretty heavy to handle safely unless you have trained help. BT3- based saws have available expansion tables and outfeed tables which can do the job but there's still the handling issues.

[Officeronin]

Thank you all for the welcome, and especially to Toolguy1000 and Knottscott for the tips on the Craftsman! I will be checking it out!

By cramped space, I have a one car garage -- 10' x 20' or so, including steps down into the house for the last 4 feet.

I built a 3'x4' base frame out of some leftover 4x4 stock and masonite, and most tools then attach to the frame. When not in use, I hang them on the wall. These include:

1. TS
2. homebuilt router table
3. 10" miter (This one http://www.amazon.com/Makita-LS1013-.../dp/B0000223I3 -- it's a lot of fun to hang on the wall!)
4. 8" bench grinder
5. craftsman drill press (a bench version)
6. scroll saw
7. a 1951 cast iron lathe of about 60" -- which obviously sits on the floor

Other large tools but do not use the base frame are the shop vac and the air compressor.

Once everything is put away, I can get a Grand Caravan into the garage, and still have just enough room to open the door sufficiently to get out, provided I did not have a big lunch.

I should post a picture, to give a more accurate idea...

On cutting plywood -- I just always have on a TS. I am a big guy at 6'5", and have never had a problem controlling it, although I find outfeed supports to be nice. Growing up, around age 10, I was the outfeed support for my dad... At the risk of going off-topic, with the sawboard idea, how would you account for warp? Use a very thin material, like masonite, so it would lay flat on any warp?

[LinuxRandal]

There is a lot that can be done without the tablesaw, it is just a different mindset. A lot of it has to do with proper support:

http://www.workbenchmagazine.com/main/wb280-table01.html

http://www.thewoodshop.20m.com/panel_cutting_table.htm

http://www.workbenchmagazine.com/main/wb280-caddy01.html

And the one I use:

http://eurekazone.com/product-catalog/ez-cutting-tables

I switched to using only the EZ system, after originally buying it instead of a panel saw. (I figured other uses for it real quick) It has grown and with the hours I work (look at the time this is posted), I have worked tired before. I trust that I am a lot safer if I am tired with my finger on the trigger then in front of a saw blade.
For a lot of people, they view this or the Festool system, or a myriad of other choices as Sawboards. It can be used as such, but it can be another option.

[Eagan]

There is a lot that can be done without the tablesaw, it is just a different mindset. A lot of it has to do with proper support:

http://www.workbenchmagazine.com/main/wb280-table01.html

http://www.thewoodshop.20m.com/panel_cutting_table.htm

http://www.workbenchmagazine.com/main/wb280-caddy01.html

And the one I use:

http://eurekazone.com/product-catalog/ez-cutting-tables

I switched to using only the EZ system, after originally buying it instead of a panel saw. (I figured other uses for it real quick) It has grown and with the hours I work (look at the time this is posted), I have worked tired before. I trust that I am a lot safer if I am tired with my finger on the trigger then in front of a saw blade.
For a lot of people, they view this or the Festool system, or a myriad of other choices as Sawboards. It can be used as such, but it can be another option.

I wish I had known of and investigated some of these non-traditional options before I had invested in rebuilding my jr. high shop class.

[LCHIEN]

the BT3 is unique in some ways. It was an excercise in out of the box thinking for table saws that succeeded in many ways and failed in some others. It is more of a system than other saws in that its accessories were well integrated.

I would also consider it a light duty saw, accurate and capable in the hands of a user who's careful and not brutish. Its not a heavy duty commercial saw for someone who is doing continuous power-cutting of heavy timbers. And by light and heavy duty I don't mean the saw is not powerful; it has power to make most cuts with reasonable feed rates - the saw has to be properly tuned and the electrical setup good.

You might want to read my FAQ - it contains info about the Sears version vs the original and has tips on buying and evaluating used BT3 saws and accessories and more basic user experience knowledge than you can imagine based on common questions and problems that arise.

See my sig line below on how to get it.

[pelligrini]

There's some good info so far.

If you liked your dad's BT, then you really ought to consider a 21829. Especially if space is a major consideration. The 21829 is basically a BT3100 on a gravity rise stand.

My first saw was a POS Skill benchtop. It's really a wonder how I never injured myself with it, and accuracy was a concept I never knew until I got my 21829. I work out of a 10x12 shed. The saw gets moved at the end of every session. When folded out I have about a 6' table top with a router insert built in the end. Folded up and wheeled into place it takes up about a 24"x30" floor space.

Here's some older shots of mine laid out, and one upright: http://www.bt3central.com/showthread...092#post342092

With a quickly removable outfeed table: http://www.bt3central.com/showthread.php?t=41179

[cabinetman]

The Craftsman 21829 is actually made by TTI/Ryobi, is a direct descendant of the BT3000 and BT3100, and has many interchangeable parts. It also includes a router table. It goes on sale in the $400-$450 range.

With full understanding about space constraints, I think a full size heavy saw with a belt drive induction motor has several advantages. Saws like the Grizzly G0715P, G0661, Ridgid R4512, Cman 21833, Steel City 35990, and Porter Cable PCB270TS are worth some consideration IMHO....~ $450-$900. These are hybrid saws and modern contractor saws. Since all house the motors inside the enclosure, they don't take up as much space as the older full size contractor saws that had a motor hanging off the back.

A good used saw is always an option.

+1. My first table saw was a $10 flea market hand held circular saw that I mounted underneath a sheet of plywood. It worked OK, but any table saw would likely have been better at the time. Since then, I'm sold on heavy cabinet saws. I still have a benchtop type table saw, that I take to the jobsite. It's very convenient for transporting.

.

[EngrChrisSaw]

I agree with the others, go with the Sears 21829. A circular saw is the most effective tool with plywood for the price. Using a straight edge as a guide works well.

Does anyone have any thoughts with track saws? I think they're better than using a cabinet table saw overall.

[tommyt654]

"in the interest of full disclosure, i will state up front that i do not own a bt3000 and really don't like the saw" So it must be all about the gloating, LOL