Blade height over wood on TS

**SARGE..g-47** · 01-14-2007, 09:19 AM

Morning ICM...

I'm curious to see the responses you get here. I run a CMT 24 T (2 ATB teeth and then one flat tooth) blade on my saw for ripping which I do a lot of. I raise the blade about 1"-1 1/2" on hardwood and on soft-wood about 3/4" (so top of wood is level with the bottom of gullet) and don't get burn. Been doing it for years. It was suggested to me by Richard Jones who at that time was a professional furniture builder in Houston. He has since moved back to England to accept a job teaching WW at an English trade college and has had a number of articles published by Wood, FWW and the English Furniture & Cabinet Making.

There are two schools of though on this issue. I do run a crown guard on my saw with a Euro "short fence" and have never had a problem with kick-back or burn. Another key to no burn is keeping a sharp blade on the saw, proper saw alignment and proper feed rate after you get the feel of your individual saw through experience with it. The saw will "tell you" the proper rate of feed if you observe and listen to it carefully...

Regards...

**Ed62** · 01-14-2007, 09:20 AM

That might have some merit. But IMHO, safety is the most important thing, and you'll have a hard time convincing me that a high blade doesn't invite kickback faster than a low blade (all else being equal). This is not to say there is never a time when a high blade isn't appropriate. I just think I'm a nice guy, and I don't want to see nice guys lose their fingers.

Ed

**cgallery** · 01-14-2007, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by Ed62

That might have some merit. But IMHO, safety is the most important thing, and you'll have a hard time convincing me that a high blade doesn't invite kickback faster than a low blade (all else being equal). This is not to say there is never a time when a high blade isn't appropriate. I just think I'm a nice guy, and I don't want to see nice guys lose their fingers.

Ed

Well, actually, a higher blade tends to push down on the wood more. A lower blade pushes the wood back towards you.

I think the biggest safety concern is exposed blade and fingers.

**Ed62** · 01-14-2007, 09:41 AM

[QUOTE=cgallery;236454]Well, actually, a higher blade tends to push down on the wood more. A lower blade pushes the wood back towards you.
QUOTE]

Yes, but there is a lot more of the plate available to pinch against.

I know there's room for discussion, but I think there's more of a risk with more blade showing than where the force of the blade hits. Especially with a sharp blade.

Ed

**Stytooner** · 01-14-2007, 10:25 AM

The front of the blade does have a better downward force when the blade is high. At the same time, the rear of the blade has a higher lifting angle. This coupled with a greater distance from the frnt to rear teeth leaves more room for operator error and assistance from the rear of the blade to create a kickback. All pretty mute when you are using a blade guard or at least a splitter or riving knife. These help to keep the rear of the blade from being able to dig into the stock in the first place.

**SARGE..g-47** · 01-14-2007, 10:28 AM

Ahhhh... the calm before the storm, just as I expected from years of discussing this issue... ha.. ha....

I'm with CG on this one, but am not going to get deeply involved. I use a crown guard.. so the wood has no-where to go up as it it attached with aircraft grade bolts. I keep the lane clear (stand to left of blade) so a straight missle shot off the table will miss. And I will not under any circumstances get my fingers closer than 8" to the blade and I wear heavy leather gloves when ripping. And the short fence avoids any pinch that might occur with a long fence by creating a free zone after the stock has cleared the first 5-6 teeth of the front of blade where all the actual cutting takes place. And a properly maintained riving knife will keep stock separated unless you get into ripping really long stock that contains a lot of compression.

So.. am I totally safe. Of course not! Only a power feeder could come close to that and most of us don't warrant the volume for one.

So.. I will just grab my cup of coffee, head to the shop and giggle awhile as this discussion continues. And in the end.. there will still be two distinct groups. One that see's the blade just above the stock and one that see's it raised as no adverse safety risk.

Everyone enjoy as I will my coffee. Finishing four chairs with all those nooks and crannies, slat intersections, etc. is another story. Grrrrrrrrrr.. I hate finishing but it is much less dangerous than operating power eqiupment regardless of how you approach it. ha.. ha...

Regards,,,

**SARGE..g-47** · 01-14-2007, 10:44 AM

And the power of a short fence for not allowing stock to pinch fence once past the cutting fence is another thread altogether.

I know.. I know.. I said I was out of here. Well I am now. It may be a 3 pot coffee day before it's over. Mama said they'd be days like this. :>)

Regards...

Attached Files

**lcm1947** · 01-14-2007, 11:18 AM

So Sarge what are you showing us? Is that piece of wood just that. A piece of wood or is it somehow connected with your fence. Sorry, not quite understanding and I like to learn so if there is something I can pickup on here I'd like to understand unless you are just showing us the standard fence on the TS? Don't mean to keep you from your coffee and chairs though.

On second look, what is that thing on your fence anyway?

**onedash** · 01-14-2007, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by lcm1947

So Sarge what are you showing us? Is that piece of wood just that. A piece of wood or is it somehow connected with your fence. Sorry, not quite understanding and I like to learn so if there is something I can pickup on here I'd like to understand unless you are just showing us the standard fence on the TS? Don't mean to keep you from your coffee and chairs though.

On second look, what is that thing on your fence anyway?

I think the pic is to illistrate that the fence stops at the blade. so there is no fence for the wood to be pinched against leading to kickback.

**Ed62** · 01-14-2007, 11:28 AM

I understand what you're saying, Sarge. And it's very valid in your case. But most of us don't have the setup you have. Undoubtedly you have a lot more ww experience than I do. I just can't see the high fence not being more inviting to kickback in my situation. That doesn't mean my mind can't be changed. But it will take some convincing.

Ed

**SARGE..g-47** · 01-14-2007, 12:21 PM

ICM...

I've got to wait for my wife to leave for her brothers as I have to caulk an un-ventilated tub with silicon caulk before the chairs get attention. So.. I'm around till just after noon and saw your response while checking e-mail.

Onedash has basically nailed it, but I will give the fine details.. The piece of wood shown is completely cut and the saw is turned off. Notice that the final cutting motion is accomplished before the last of the stock has reached the center of blade (or highest point of blade which is center in it's arc). Those front down cutting teeth do the work, the "rear rising" teeth serve no purpose what-so-ever in the cut, but they are a key element of the danger involved. If the operator shifts improper pressure to his feed.. or if the wood has tension and opens (tension wood closing after the cut and pinching the back side of the blade has another solution) the stock can hit the rear of fence and rebound or deflect it back into those dangerous "rear rising" teeth.

The short fence eliminates that potential problem by creating a "free zone" beyond the last teeth that arer actually needed to complete the cut. Take a close look at a cut you make and stop the saw as soon as the stock has been completely severed. Take notice of what position on the blade that happens and then ask why do I need a fence beyond that point that could cause interference that could lead to kick-back?

To go a step further in explanation.. take a look at those knobs on top of my "short fence" that actually fits over my standard long fence. They allow the fence to move forward and rear-ward by loosening them. And you will probably ask WHY?......

If you use 1" thick stock the final tooth needed will be around the 2" from the front of the blade going toward center. If you use 1 1/2" stock, it will be around 2 1/2" from front of the blade. 2" stock.. etc., etc... But at no point regardless of thickness will a NEEDED tooth be involved beyond the highest center tooth in the arc. I have a position mark on my saw to indicate where I need the front lip of my short fence without having the fence extend any farther than truly needed.

So.... it took a little getting used too when I first used the short fence (about 200 practice cuts on scrap) to get the proper feel, but once I attained that feel I would never use a long fence again. A short fence can be adapted on any U.S. saw with a long fence. But will the merits of the short fence be recognized and adapted? The way people have done it because that's the way it's always been is hard to dent. But.. the short fence is a safer way to "get er done" and that's a fact as you will not see a long fence on a European saw unless it's strickly for export to the U.S. They are very safety oriented and that's why they all have riving knives instead of the standard splitter. And those pawls which I almost severed a finger on once as the gaurd dropped down when raised and took a bite. And the saw was not even turned on.. I have never used a pawl since.

So... if you have further questions, I will get back to ya latter. Let the silicon stink up the joint so I can get to the shop where the coffee pot awaits this fine Sunday morning. Amen!

Regards...

**niki** · 01-14-2007, 02:54 PM

Just to strengthen SARGE, Look at the pic of my European TS.
The short fence can de adjusted fore and back.

Please have a look at this page
http://forums.ukworkshop.co.uk/viewt...b4af67eb3b6d1b

Look for "Scrit"s reply, he is an accident inspector/investigator in UK.
Here is part of his reply:
"To avoid trapping it is necessary to use the short rip fence which ends about where the blade gullet is - on a through fence this can be achieved by adding an auxilliary rip fence to the existing fence top emulate a short rip fence. Do that and trapping between the blade and the rip fence simply doesn't occur - a very good reason NOT to follow American long rip fence practice which was abandoned in the UK years ago. For me (trade) this is the law - for a DIYer it's advisable because it's safer".

Also, please click on the "here" at the end of his post, it's a safety PDF file of the UK, I recommend reading it.

niki

**lcm1947** · 01-14-2007, 03:45 PM

Well I've never of such stuff. That was fascinating. It sure makes a lot of sense to me. I like the idea of the short fence and the elimination of most kickbacks. Hmmm. I'm thinking about somehow adjusting my fence to achieve this goal of no pressure against the blade. Maybe a short piece of wood attached to the fence? I'll have to think about this. Thanks Sarge for starting it and Niki for your good input as usual. That PDF was great as well as the comments on the forum. Good stuff!

**DJehlik** · 01-14-2007, 04:41 PM

Here's more on the subject:
https://www.sawdustzone.org/articles...mare-explained

Blade height over wood on TS

Blade height over wood on TS

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