Where do you stand when you saw?

[gimpy]

OK, thx a lot for this discussion. Reading this post (and the link to newwoodworker by Tom Hintz) has just convinced me that I need all the help I can get to prevent kickback on my bt3100. I have read these kickback articles/discussions before, but for some reason, this one piqued (scared?) me the most of any I have read. Maybe it is because I had a kickback last week using my brand new miter saw (I was very lucky on that one, as the wood went behind the saw, diagonally away from me and not towards me). Don't ask.

Anyway, even though I use the stock guard and riving knife that comes with the saw, I plan on buying the shark guard as everyone on here has said how well it works. Even though I am a "cheap you know what", I think I can convince my better half to let me get this without too much fuss.

Frank

[SARGE..g-47]

The Euro riving knifes only arc to just under the maximum height of the highest tooth of a raised blade. That way the riving knife can be left on on most non-through cuts (not dadoes) by just taking the top gaurd off.

I saw the PM 2000 at the IWF in Atlanta just a few weeks ago. If I purchased it I would shorten the riving knife and get rid of the plastic "thingy" with the pawls up top. Then I would add a Euro "crown" guard by drilling two holes in the riving kinfe and mounting a fabricated quick release Euro style "crown" guard. That fabricated "crown" guard would have a slot wider than the blade kerf on the bottom that the the utmost raised tooth rode in.

And to answer the question before it gets asked, IMO the plastic "thingy" gets fogged up and you can't see through it, giving me the feeling of not being in complete mental and physical control from observation of what's happening under-neath. As to the pawls, I had a plastic "thingy" drop from the raised position long ago while I was making an adjustment to the saw that was off and un-plugged. Five stitches at the finger joints without the saw even running.

And of course, just my personal opinions as viewed from where I stand left of the saw blade always "keeping the lane clear" and attention focused to what is taking place with a piece of metal spinning at high speed. :>)

Regards...

[Stytooner]

Right. I understand that the shorter RK is just below the blade height, but on the SS, it's pointed at the top. I guess it still works okay, but it seems like more meat when the blade is used at a lower setting would be more rigid. Just an oddity that I was curious about. Perhaps the PM one will have a little more meat on top. The Felder and most other Euro saws have a little more meat than simply being pointed.

[SARGE..g-47]

Just a question Lee, before the "First Lady" sends me out to do some wood working (she says that tree removal in the back yard is Wood-working). I have looked at your shark guard and wondered if you machine the riving knife from scratch or do you use a BT blank and work from there?

BTW.. your guard is a major improvement over stock not only on the BT, but even the higher dollar cabinet saws by a long shot. I would describe the splittter on stock guards as flimsy and most have their orignal mount point not where it counts, but hanging off the **s of the machine which coupled with flimsy can cause the splitter to move and jam stock into the fence, etc.

I had my BIL (machine shop foreman Delta Air Lines) cut and machine two new knifes. One slightly thinner than a TK blade and the other slightly thinner than a standard kerf ao my knives are custom as the ones you make. I did design it so the release bolts for the "crown" guard go through the knife. Instead of the forward portion of guard lifting on kick-back, the crown is secured to the knife by grade #8 bolts and the stock would have to break them or the two knife attachment bolts under the top to allow stock to be thrown up, up and away.

Just some thoughts to ponder as I realize you are probably always looking for other options outside the normal box of thinking..

Regards... and keep up your excellent advancements in alternatives offering WW's a safer approach!

[Stytooner]

Thanks. I make all of these myself. I currently cut them out the old fashioned way with a metal bandsaw. I have a plasma cutter now and want to CNC it so it will be able to do the grunt work for me in the future.
Your guard looks good. A couple of other guys use the same basic approach around here. The most important feature to me of any guard is that RK. It can absolutely save your hide.

[Ken Weaver]

I have two safety devices - my brain and the Shark Guard. I'm right handed and stand to the left. I've tried it standing on the right, but it just doesn't feel comfortable for me, and if I'm not comfortable, I'm not safe. I like the Shark because as noted above, I can see the the blade and the work at the point of the cut. If I know where it is, I can be sure that I'm not in the same place. Before I do each cut I try to visualize what's supposed to happen and then take my time to make sure it does. I've had kickback and the Shark earned its keep - I'm a believer.

Sawstop is great technology and it has its place. For most of us its still going to be a matter of getting the brain in gear before touching any other switch.

PS - Its not just in woodworking, I watched a crew chief in Korea hose off a F-4D 20mm gun pod on the service pad because of the same kind of brain fart. Now that gets your attention. We decided to take a different airplane.

[gsmittle]

I've had my Shark Guard about six months now, and I have to say it is one sweet piece of equipment. Nicely made, elegant design, and top-notch materials. It's an essential accessory even at twice the price. I can't believe I waited so long to buy one.

Plus I love the shark decal.....

I mentioned in a much earlier thread that I was in a high school shop over the summer that had just set up a brand-new SawStop saw. It's a very nice saw, and in a high school it's about perfect. According to the wood tech teacher, if a student triggers the stop, he/she buys the new cartridge and blade.

Back in the day, I saw two of my classmates get cut because they were careless. Dang teenagers.....

g.

[Stick]

I mentioned in a much earlier thread that I was in a high school shop over the summer that had just set up a brand-new SawStop saw. It's a very nice saw, and in a high school it's about perfect. According to the wood tech teacher, if a student triggers the stop, he/she buys the new cartridge and blade.

Back in the day, I saw two of my classmates get cut because they were careless. Dang teenagers.....

g.

I would have to agree with the SawStop on a school saw. Back in the day.....that one just made me see red. Let's get into the wayBack machine and turn the dial to 1971. School wood shop, grade 7. Students weren't allowed to use the table saw or RAS...too dangerous. No gaurds at all on either machine. Instead the teacher did the big cuts and we could do small stuff or more intricate or curves on the band saw. Anyway, this goofus kid was merrily bandsawing away, and looked over at another kid for a minute. Sawe 3/4 way through the back of his hand. Blood everywhere. Instructor fainted, cracked his head on the concrete floor. Now two casualties. Another student shut the shop down and called the ambulance etc. Nasty!

[vaking]

Several good points were raised in this discussion:
1). Kickback is a far more frequent event than a hand or a finger sawn away by the blade.
2). Consequences of a kickback are just as severe or may be even worse than the results of a finger in a blade.
3). Sawstop technology does nothing to prevent a kickback. It addresses specifically the finger in the blade problem.
4). A splitter (pure splitter) addresses the kickback issue. It does not prevent it completely but it reduces chances of it significantly. It does not help the finger in the blade problem. The blade guard helps with finger in the blade. A combination device like a shark guard addresses both.
5). Sawstop is a safety feature that comes at a cost of $800 per saw with additional cost every time it actually works and it is better that it never actually fires. Plus it addresses a relatively infrequent problem. Shark guard costs $100, works all the time and addresses much more frequent potential problem.

All-on-all, a device like shark guard is a much more important safety feature than sawstop. Discussion that every saw should have sawstop can take place only after every saw is equipped with good quality splitter/blade quard like shark. People who are trying to mandate sawstop are driven by personal interest rather than public safety. If you want to address public safety - start by defining acceptable quality of blade guard. Today most saws have a joke of a guard. That stands true in any environment including schools. I understand that in school you want to use all the safety available but a good guard gives you a lot more bang for your buck. If you have plenty of money - get everything, if you have budget limitation - start with guards.

One more potential danger here:
Sawstop marketing overemphasizes the risk of finger in the blade compared to kickback. If you do get a sawstop - it may create a false feeling of safety. In reality - sawstop or not - you still need to be safety concious. I would not be surprised if the long term effect of a sawstop turns out to be negative because of human mentality. It is a good technology but people need to better understand its place. Existing marketing campaign isn't helping.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

[QUOTE=vaking]5). Sawstop is a safety feature that comes at a cost of $800 per saw QUOTE]

Where did you get that number? They state they are going to sell the contractor saw with SawStop technology for $800.

How is the Shark Guard better than the SawStops standard riving knife and blade guard?

I am not arguing by any means and have no vested interest in SawStop, in fact I am not a fan of some of the legal tactics they are using regarding legistlation of safety, but I would like to have those facts clarified if anyone has those answers.

[vaking]

Jeffrey,
1). I was not going by what "they" state (in fact, as of today they don't say anything about any $800 saws - looks like they pulled back some earlier statements). I was going by the fact that sawstop is $800 - $1000 more expensive than comparable saw without sawstop technology.
2). I have never played with sawstop itself so I don't know if it's riving knife is better than shark. Even if it is better - comparing a $3000 saw with a $300 saw even with $100 aftermarket upgrade is not very fair. What I do know is that most saws today do not come with a riving knife as functional as shark. If you want to improve on safety in an inexpensive way - providing a functional riving knife is the best place to start.

[Stytooner]

I have actually evolved the shark to fit the Saw Stop. There are a few differences in the OEM guard and extra true riving knife and the Shark.
For starters, the guard is really too narrow. Why too narrow you might ask? Well being narrow is good, but the guy that helped me with the Beta version sent me his brand new replacement guard that he had to buy. It seems his original got cut into by the blade pretty good, simply because it is so narrow. That really isn't desirable. Also to get a true riving knife like the Shark has, you have to remove the blade guard and throat plate. Then install the true RK that comes with the saw. It's not hard to do, but it's easier with the shark I think. One RK stays on the saw. Also for some reason the true RK on the SS is pointed at the top. Not much meat there when you have the blade set low. I do like the pawls on the SS guard, but with the Shark and a RK, I feel the pawls are redundant. Good for those that want them. Dust collection is a factor as well.
The Shark Guard just has more features than the SS blade guard.

[drumpriest]

Last I had read the sawstop was sold as a % of the saw cost, but it was a high percentage, and thus not attractive to most TS makers. Loring, I personally have a reaction time of around 18-25 ms, 250ms being 10x that, I would hope that I'd have moved, but you never know. Though at 250ms I'd have been knocked out several ring fights ago, that is SLOW for a human. 30-50ms for an older human I believe, 250 ms, you are a sleep or already in shock.

I personally stand in different places depending upon the cut size. If it's a small cut between the blade and rip fence, I stand left, blade in line with my right arm pit, if it's larger, I stand right, as I have more control of the work piece that way. All cuts made with my shark's riving knife installed. Also smaller cuts get a feather board.

My last, and best, line of defense....if I have any doubts about making a cut, I don't make it. If I'm not comfortable with the idea of making the cut, I'll find another way to acheive it. Remember also to often check your rip fence alignment and the alignment of your riving knife with the blade.