Are Dovetails Neccessary?

[BigguyZ]

So I'm looking to get into woodworking and am still setting up my shop. During this time, I haven't been able to make any sawdust, but I'm reading up in the forum and in books on tips and techniques. One of my first projects will be an in wall set of drawers for clothes and cabinetry for a kitchen.

So anyway, I'm looking at joinery techniques and it seems that the gold standard is dovetails. But why? I've hear it said many times over, and know from personal experience, that with the advances in glues these days that even a decent butt joint is stronger than the wood itself. So why would you need the additional strength of dovetails? Wouldn't box or finger joints do just as well?

Or is it simply an aesthetic issue?

[LarryG]

Dovetails date from a time when there were only animal hide glues, and, even more important, before full-extension ball-bearing drawer slides had been invented. Then, the drawer body was subject to high pull-apart stresses when it was withdrawn from the carcase by its front panel. Today, when even a heavily-loaded drawer will glide open almost effortlessly, dovetails are largely done for aesthetics. They're still a strong joint. They're still a beautiful joint. But they're no longer truly necessary.

Note that the above assumes use of good quality drawer slides to carry the load. You typically have those in kitchen cabinets and other built-ins. For a piece of, say, bedroom furniture, such as a dresser or chest, the drawers of which usually don't have slides, the case for dovetails is as strong as ever.

[brooks]

GuyZ, that's the same thing my woodworking teachers said - dovetails are an affectation on many projects. But they look nice and if you're planning to resell the house, using dovetails on the kitchen cabinet drawers will raise the perceived quality. According to my teachers, glues are so strong, it's already stronger than the wood itself so dovetails aren't necessary, they're an extra.

I still think they look nice and they're so easy to make with modern jigs, it's a viable option for almost any project.

[BigguyZ]

The reason I asked is I was reading "Mastering Woodworking Machines" by Mark Duginske. He kind of made it seem that you aren't a true woodworker and your work is less than stellar is your don't use dovetails. He also kinda rips on dovetails done with a jig too.... Says that they look too machined/ ordinary.

[LarryG]

He kind of made it seem that you aren't a true woodworker and your work is less than stellar is your don't use dovetails. He also kinda rips on dovetails done with a jig too.... Says that they look too machined/ ordinary.

If you view woodworking as an art form, as many of us do (if only for selected pieces), that's all true. On one episode of "WoodWorks," David J Marks made a comment about the "corn on the cob" look of dovetails cut with the typical half-blind jig. IMO, for fine furniture, he's right ... such dovetails look pretty darned good until you compare them to a well-executed hand-cut joint in which the tails are longer and thinner, and unequally spaced. But also IMO, half-blind machine-cut DTs have their place on stuff like kitchen cabinets and built-ins.

As with many things, it's all a matter of how high one's personal standards are, and/or the "importance" of the given project.

[Popeye]

I've been hacking up wood for over 20 years and have yet to use dovetails in a drawer. That's not to say anything bad about them, they are the best joint for the job. But when the budget dictates that a good jig is out of reach and you are too impatient to learn to do them by hand then......
I would not however make drawers just using glued butt joints. I don't care what glue you use I can't see the end grain of the fronts and backs of the drawer holding up over time.
I have used dadoed and rabbit drawer joints, lots of glue surface and very solid.
I've made drawers with butt joints re-enforced with biscuits, again very strong.
I've butt jointed drawers re-enforced with through dowels, probably as strong as dovetails, but about as time consuming.
Sliding dovetails are another option I've used, very strong, doesn't require a jig has a short learning curve to make. The current Wood magazine has an article on make these.
I've even put shop drawers together with screws if I was using guides.
All that said I bought an inexpensive jig finally and if I'm not pressed for time I hope to try it out on the next project that has a drawer.
Good luck, have fun and be safe... oh and don't worry about catching up to Norm or the rest of the pro's. This is supposed to be fun not stressful. Pat

[25]

I have heard the same line about how todays glues are stronger than the wood itself, but there is one thing todays glues have not done. That is to take the test of time. With dovetails you are reducing the stress the glues needs to handle, so over time they should stand up better even if the glue fails.

I guess it also depends on how long you plan on having the furniture that you are making as well.

[BigguyZ]

Popeye- I wasn't planning on using butt joints for drawers, I was just illustrating a point. In fact, I was looking at using box joints for drawers...

Larry- I think I get your point about WW as an art form... I'm not to that point yet. For now I may just get the cheap Rockler half blind dovetail jig on sale now for $60. Anyone use that? It seems like it'd be pretty easy... Should be good for my functional WW projects (built-ins, kitchen cabinets, workshop cabinets).

[cabinetman]

To answer your original question, yes box and finger joints provide good glue surface. For drawers that use the front of the box for the drawer front, a decorative joint does look good. I've made quite a few drawers and I usually have a separate exposed front added to the actual drawer box. In the event of damage it's easier to replace a drawer front than a drawer. I've had great luck with rabbeting the sides, grooving the sides and front for the bottom and having the bottom fasten to the back of the drawer. This is done to make the bottom removable. Never had a drawer come apart. Since a majority of the drawers I've done I use hardwood plywood in the specie of the cabinet, or for decorative reasons another specie, dovetails, box, and finger joints are not a good idea.

As for glue longevity, I still have furniture that I made some 30 years ago, using "yellow" PVA and is still holding up well. The failures I've experienced in glue joints were not the fault of the glue.



"I'M NEVER WRONG - BUT I'M NOT ALWAYS RIGHT"

[BigguyZ]

Since a majority of the drawers I've done I use hardwood plywood in the specie of the cabinet, or for decorative reasons another specie, dovetails, box, and finger joints are not a good idea.

So dovetails and box joints shouldn't be done with plywood? Why/ why not?

[Tequila]

So dovetails and box joints shouldn't be done with plywood? Why/ why not?

The strength of the dovetail comes from the grain of the wood. With ply, you lose much of that strength since the grain is multidirectional. And if the ply happens to delaminate, you've got an ugly joint left.

[cabinetman]

They can be done, except that there is the tendency of edge fraying, splitting, plies separating, plies breaking off, rough looking edges, just a few of the problems I've experienced, both by hand and in a jig. The decorative joints work and look better in solid wood, on a more consistent basis.



"I'M NEVER WRONG - BUT I'M NOT ALWAYS RIGHT"

[BigguyZ]

So if you were doing a lower cost built in (for a closet), or a workshop cabinet, or low-middle kitchen drawers, would you use solid pine for the sides and plywood for the bottom?

Or- if you wanted to stay with ply, what joint would you use?

[Black wallnut]

I have had great results, in look IMHO and function/ durability, with D/T joinery and plywood. I do however only use baltic birch ply with dovetails.

[Tom Miller]

So if you were doing a lower cost built in (for a closet), or a workshop cabinet, or low-middle kitchen drawers, would you use solid pine for the sides and plywood for the bottom?

Or- if you wanted to stay with ply, what joint would you use?

I don't think I'd go with a soft wood like pine for the drawer box -- too much movement, and it may not stand up well to the abuse. Typically, a cheaper hardwood like poplar, etc., is used for drawer boxes, even on nicer furniture pieces. A plywood bottom would be fine.

Regards,
Tom