Question/saw issue...

[steveg]

cwsmith -- you are exactly right in that I have trouble feeding into the blade, before it ever gets to the splitter. SO, while my splitter DOES need to be aligned, there are issues before that. And YES, the "lifting" forces are occurring NOT initially (as it would if the blade was installed backward), but as the wood has been fed through far enough to where the back of the blade/rear teeth are coming in contact with the wood.

I have also decided, based on all the help here and based on having tried a few other fixes (alignment checks, etc.) that it is a very dull blade issue. I would NOT have thought so, just looking at the teeth; on a chain saw, for instance, you can tell easily when your teeth are dull. When it starts not cutting well, and you are getting "burning" of the wood -- taking a look at the teeth will reveal very quickly that they are dull/rounded in appearance. I did NOT see ANYTHING like that on this blade...

BUT, nonetheless, I have a Freud Fusion 40T blade on the way...HOPEFULLY this solves my issues, and then I can align my splitter and get this project rolling!

Cochese -- if I continue to have the same problem after installing the new blade, I WILL take/post a video...because I will be stumped, at that point.

Steve

[Cochese]

I think at this point the best way for the people here to see what the problem is is to take video.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

[cwsmith]

In my respectful opinion, this whole thing with alignment and the splitter issues can get complicated beyond reason.

My simplification is to use an aluminimum straight edge (aluminum so you don't damage the blade). With that (mine is 2" wide), you can quickly check to see that the fence and blade are in fact parallel, as I stated earlier.

You can also quickly check the splitter... simply slide the straight edge from front to back (like you would feed the stock) along against first one side of the blade and then the other.... it should not snag on the splitter. Placed against the side of the blade, the splitter or riving knife should be directly behind the blade.

But, the description given by Steve G (a couple times, IIRC) is that he's having trouble even feeding INTO the blade, which would certainly be before it gets to the splitter.

Likewise, he's perceiving some "lifting" forces. I don't understand that, unless the blade is spinning backwards; but, perhaps I'm not understanding that correctly, SO, is it seemingly "lifting" on contact with the blade, or after it's been fed to a point where the lifting is on the back of the blade?

I do think (and have thought all along) that it is an extremely dull blade issue: but hey, I've been wrong more than a few times. You can buy a pretty decent Freud Diablo 40-tooth at your local Home Depot for about $40. Less teeth, less money, but I find a 40-tooth to be a pretty decent combination, unless you are running 2-by stock and it is damp.

CWS

[cabinetman]

At this stage, since nothing else has worked...I'm bettin' on the blade.

.

[steveg]

OK -- I just checked...OUCH. $150...that's as much as I paid for my saw! Looks like I might be doing some adjusting of what I have...

Steve

[steveg]

Thanks for the info, guys...I'll work on aligning mine for now (sounds a bit tricky, but I'll give it a shot); meanwhile, sounds like this "shark guard" may be less "irritating" and easier to work with. What's a "shark guard" cost (ballpark)?

Steve

[LCHIEN]

Aligning the splitter:
1: Unplug the saw!
2: remove throat plate
3: raise blade assembly pretty much all the way up.
4: Using one of the saw's wrenches, loosen the two small nuts holding the blade guard assembly - you'll see these two nuts behind the blade.
5: where the splitter & guard assembly attach you should see a series of thin metal shims on either side of the splitter. Move shims from one side of the splitter to the other to move the splitter around. After you verify the whole splitter plate is flat/not bent. You don't need to remove the nuts or screws to remove shims or the splitter; they have inverted "U" shaped slots instead of holes in them. It's a little trial and error to find the right shim combo to position the splitter centered behind the blade... and you have to snug up the nuts each time to check the spacing.

Removing the splitter+guard assembly is fairly easy when you need to (i.e. when making dado cuts) but re-installing it is somewhat of a nuisance job... getting the splitter lined up between the correct shims, etc. A trick posted by somebody else on this forum long ago: slice up an aluminum can and make a pair of extra-tall shims, then fold the top edges over 45 degrees - making a "V" shaped funnel. Install one on each side of the splitter and from now on you'll just have to stuff the splitter into the "V" funnel to re-install the splitter. MUCH easier & faster. Or spring for the Shark Guard. It has better dust collection than the stock guard (which has none) and you can remove the guard portion leaving the riving knife (basically a splitter that's almost as tall as the blade; you can leave it installed all the time even for dado or other non-through cuts!) easily/quickly.

mpc

I would add to mpc's procedure above that after you think you have it aligned, look at the splitter and blade from directly overhead and make sure that they are parallel and that the splitter appears to be between the two sides of the saw blade. If the splitter is not perfectly vertical, then you will have to persuade it by gently bending it into the opposite direction a bit at a time until you get it parallel, then repeat the alignment process again.

[mpc]

Aligning the splitter:
1: Unplug the saw!
2: remove throat plate
3: raise blade assembly pretty much all the way up.
4: Using one of the saw's wrenches, loosen the two small nuts holding the blade guard assembly - you'll see these two nuts behind the blade.
5: where the splitter & guard assembly attach you should see a series of thin metal shims on either side of the splitter. Move shims from one side of the splitter to the other to move the splitter around. After you verify the whole splitter plate is flat/not bent. You don't need to remove the nuts or screws to remove shims or the splitter; they have inverted "U" shaped slots instead of holes in them. It's a little trial and error to find the right shim combo to position the splitter centered behind the blade... and you have to snug up the nuts each time to check the spacing.

Removing the splitter+guard assembly is fairly easy when you need to (i.e. when making dado cuts) but re-installing it is somewhat of a nuisance job... getting the splitter lined up between the correct shims, etc. A trick posted by somebody else on this forum long ago: slice up an aluminum can and make a pair of extra-tall shims, then fold the top edges over 45 degrees - making a "V" shaped funnel. Install one on each side of the splitter and from now on you'll just have to stuff the splitter into the "V" funnel to re-install the splitter. MUCH easier & faster. Or spring for the Shark Guard. It has better dust collection than the stock guard (which has none) and you can remove the guard portion leaving the riving knife (basically a splitter that's almost as tall as the blade; you can leave it installed all the time even for dado or other non-through cuts!) easily/quickly.

mpc

[steveg]

gee, Erik...good point. I did not try that. Should have. For now, I already took off the old blade, and still need to re-tap the hole for that throat plate screw (whose head was stripped and I had to drill it out). When I get the new blade, and the throat plate back on, I'll see if my problem is solved. IF NOT, I'll do as you say -- try a crosscut with the miter gauge. If THAT fixed the problem, it would obviously suggest a fence/alignment issue...

Steve

[pelligrini]

Have you tried crosscutting something with the SMT or a miter gauge? That will take any possible fence alignment problems out of the equation.

[steveg]

cabinetman --

In this case, raising the blade higher did NOT help with the cutting; it was still very hard to push the board through (ESPECIALLY on the rip), and I still had ridiculous amounts of wood burning. Yes, there were some saw marks (which you say might suggest an alignment issue), BUT -- I did not see any issues at all with my alignment, when I measured. I locked down my fence, measured with a tape measure from the fence to the edge of a tooth (just as you would if you were preparing to make a cut and were adjusting your fence), and then rotated that tooth forward and re-measured...while I was obviously not using a "precision" measuring device , it looked to my eyes that the measurements were dead-on. I don't know how much precision is needed here -- obviously my ruler was not measuring to the thousandths of an inch...but I am guessing that those two measurements were equal down to at least a hundredth...

Did you see where I mentioned the blade I purchased and is on the way? Way back, knottscott gave me several blade suggestions for this saw; he told me about several good ripping blades, several good crosscutting blades, but given that I was going to do a bit of cross-cutting, some ripping, and some plywood cutting, he gave me suggestions on some combination blades also...some fairly good but inexpensive blades, and then some "premium" combination blades. I opted for one of his "premium" combination blade suggestions -- a Freud Fusion 40T think kerf blade. I am hoping that installing this, and then re-confirming my fence alignment will solve my issues...fingers crossed...

My only concern is that -- while I don't know if I'd know how to spot a dull blade -- to my untrained eyes, the teeth on that blade did NOT look bad/dull...and I'd think they'd have to be pretty doggone bad to result in the ridiculous amount of burning and difficulty cutting that I experienced...

Steve

[cabinetman]

Woodturner -- I am positive that the blade is facing the correct direction...it is absolutely turning toward the front of the saw when running, and with the teeth facing the front of the saw when the saw is turned off.

That "lifting" that I mentioned was not substantial, and it was not occurring at the beginning of the cut; it was later on, as I was feeding the board through. Again, not pronounced, just a little.

Anyway, I usually would run a table saw with the teeth just a bit above the stock (roughly the 1/8" you mentioned -- which is where I ran the blade the first time I tested it and had the "hard to feed" issue). But, during yesterday's testing, I went ahead and raised it a bit, per someone's advice on this thread, to see if that helped (probably 1/2" to 3/4" above the stock, I don't recall precisely).

I really have to assume it's a dull blade. I looked at the teeth, and it doesn't LOOK dull, but I am not sure if I'd know a dull blade, just by looking. But, any time I've had difficulty "cutting," with ANY type of tool, it's always been a dull blade, so I'm hoping that's the case here. The amount of smoking/burning of the wood was ridiculous!

Steve

I don't know of any "guideline" about running the blade just above the stock. IMO, that's just info that's been bandied about on forums for years. I'm glad you tried running the blade higher, and had positive results. The physical principles with that method is that there is less tooth contact, and the cutting action is more down than a blade run lower. Those down forces help keep stock on the table.

The theory that a low blade won't cut as deep into your hands or fingers than a high blade begs the premise that YOUR FINGERS DON'T BELONG ANYWHERE NEAR THE BLADE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Learning proper operating methods, and using the proper safety devices make for safer operation.

I'm also betting that your real problem is the blade itself. If you are ripping, put a good ripping blade on. Try a 32 tooth. If the cut edge shows quite a bit of saw marks, you could have an alignment problem. How did your parallel measurements fare out?

.

[steveg]

Woodturner -- I am positive that the blade is facing the correct direction...it is absolutely turning toward the front of the saw when running, and with the teeth facing the front of the saw when the saw is turned off.

That "lifting" that I mentioned was not substantial, and it was not occurring at the beginning of the cut; it was later on, as I was feeding the board through. Again, not pronounced, just a little.

Anyway, I usually would run a table saw with the teeth just a bit above the stock (roughly the 1/8" you mentioned -- which is where I ran the blade the first time I tested it and had the "hard to feed" issue). But, during yesterday's testing, I went ahead and raised it a bit, per someone's advice on this thread, to see if that helped (probably 1/2" to 3/4" above the stock, I don't recall precisely).

I really have to assume it's a dull blade. I looked at the teeth, and it doesn't LOOK dull, but I am not sure if I'd know a dull blade, just by looking. But, any time I've had difficulty "cutting," with ANY type of tool, it's always been a dull blade, so I'm hoping that's the case here. The amount of smoking/burning of the wood was ridiculous!

Steve

[woodturner]

I tried a crosscut first, and while I could accomplish it, I had to REALLY push hard on the board, and the board had a tendency to want to lift upward, from the table, while cutting.

Lift upward at the front edge of the blade? That really sounds like a backwards blade - the blade should push the wood down on the table, not lift it up, and I can't think of anything else that would account for the uplift. Is the blade turning toward the front of the saw? Maybe the prior owner figured out a way to twist the belt or otherwise get the motor in reverse?

How high do you have the blade?

One guideline is that the top of the blade should protrude about 1/8" or so above the cut. That guideline is for safety, to minimize the cut if you run your hand through the blade.

A second guideline is that the blade should be high enough so that the teeth are flat when they strike the wood to cut, which puts the blade 1/2" or so above the wood. It's less safe but provides a better cut.

It's possible the blade is really dull, as you have suggested. In spite of its newer appearance, the prior owner might have hit a nail or done something else to dull the teeth. That still wouldn't explain the uplift, though.

I'll be interested to learn the cause of this mystery.

[steveg]

LCHIEN --

While I don't think this is the issue, since the "difficult to push through the blade" thing begins just as soon as the board contacts the blade and the cut begins, there ARE issues with the alignment of that riving knife (I think this is also referred to as a "splitter" that someone else mentioned on this thread?)

I know on one of the cuts, I hit a point where the board I was pushing through the blade stopped -- it clearly hit something, and I looked and could see that the knife was not aligned with the blade, and thus not aligned with the cut in the wood -- such that the wood was hitting the knife which prevented it from moving any farther through the blade. I "moved" it (as you noted, the steel is very mild) so that my board could continue on through the blade, but this piece will clearly need some type of "adjustment" to line it up properly. Are there instructions anywhere as to how to properly "line up" that riving knife? In the manual, maybe?

That whole contraption is pretty clumsy, with those "anti-kickback" teeth, and that blade guard, the riving knive, etc. I am tempted to remove the whole she-bang...I've never used a table saw before with a blade guard, let alone the anti-kickback stuff and a riving knife. It seems very cumbersome, and if I can't get that knife lined up properly, I have an idea as to what I'm going to end up doing...

Loring, you sent me your "FAQ" a couple of years ago, and I seem to recall in it some "pros and cons" dealing with this whole assembly, and how some folks "modify it" (taping the anti-kickback teeth, I think), or even removing it completely...I'll have to go back and re-read.

Steve