No good saw for $300

[Russianwolf]

Another stupid one from their site.

Question:
Hello,
I currently am in the process of specing out a workshop for a very afflent friend of mine. I would like to get the best of the best machinery, Can you reccomend a brand or brands that you have had good experience with.
Thanks,
Marc


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer:
We do not endorse any product but you can check out our Yankee Links for brands that we use and trust.

They rattle off the name Unisaw in just about every table saw question, but they don't "endorse" any product? Sheesh, morons.

[bigsteel15]

They rattle off the name Unisaw in just about every table saw question, but they don't "endorse" any product? Sheesh, morons.

I've been resisting the urge to chime in on this one but that gets me.
How can anyone who has watched the show and seen the "this program is brought to you by (Porter Cable/Delta)" at the beginning and end expect any other answer?
Other shows, such as Hometime do the same thing but maybe not so obvious. Hometime shows the host shopping for lights/fixtures, etc.
Everytime they are at the closest BORG. They don't tell you that, but what other store has orange racking with those funky looking price stickers.

Even our beloved Mike Holmes up here (Holmes on Homes, great show) doesn't endorse any product, but every tool he uses is YELLOW. Hmmmm, wonder what they could be? I'm sure if you look real close at any renovation show, you'll see the guys using mostly one brand of hand held power tool, when you can see them using a tool.

These guys are trying to show you how to do and build. They aren't infomercials jamming any one product up your gullet. Just respect what they are capable of.
Every show on TV needs sponsors, especially ones on publicly funded TV which don't have an advertisement every 5 minutes.
Look at the quality (or lack of) of shows that have scattered about on stations like HGTV...mostly watered down crap.

Sorry, had to vent. This was starting to get to me.

[Ken Massingale]

I've been resisting the urge to chime in on this one but that gets me.
How can anyone who has watched the show and seen the "this program is brought to you by (Porter Cable/Delta)" at the beginning and end expect any other answer?
Other shows, such as Hometime do the same thing but maybe not so obvious. Hometime shows the host shopping for lights/fixtures, etc.
Everytime they are at the closest BORG. They don't tell you that, but what other store has orange racking with those funky looking price stickers.

Even our beloved Mike Holmes up here (Holmes on Homes, great show) doesn't endorse any product, but every tool he uses is YELLOW. Hmmmm, wonder what they could be? I'm sure if you look real close at any renovation show, you'll see the guys using mostly one brand of hand held power tool, when you can see them using a tool.

These guys are trying to show you how to do and build. They aren't infomercials jamming any one product up your gullet. Just respect what they are capable of.
Every show on TV needs sponsors, especially ones on publicly funded TV which don't have an advertisement every 5 minutes.
Look at the quality (or lack of) of shows that have scattered about on stations like HGTV...mostly watered down crap.

Sorry, had to vent. This was starting to get to me.

Don't hold back, Brian. Tell us how you really feel! ;-D

[Russianwolf]

Sorry, had to vent. This was starting to get to me.

Vent away and don't feel bad. But what I was getting at isn't on their show, it's on their site. At least half of the questions people have about Table Saws, they respond with something about the Unisaw. If that isn't an endorsement, I don't know what is.

Then, when asked about a brand they have had a good experience with, they say "we don't endorse any product".

Why not just come out and say "Delta is a good brand to look at"? We all know elta makes some quality tools and is the show's main sponsor, nothing wrong with saying it I don't think. And when you recommend half a dozen times for people to look for a Unisaw, it is an endorsement.

[LarryG]

The contractor saw in the foreground looks like the 36-444 or even the 34-444 (note the dust collection ramp) with the old Delta T-fence or Unirip fence and steel wings (note the ridges) ...those models haven't been made for a few years. The contractor saw midway to the right looks like the brand new left tilt 36-982 with the built in mobile base, cast iron wings, extension table and Biesemeyer fence.

Oh ... right. I looked at the picture, then came back here to compose my reply, and apparently mentally transposed the two contractor-type saws.

[dwolsten]

Let's talk about reality for a minute. The New Yankee Workshop is a TV show. TV shows exist directly and indirectly from corporate "sponsorship" and advertising who want to sell you something. That's it. TV shows don't exist for any other reason. Even the nightly news is a TV show and not really obligated to report the truth (that's been ruled on by the Florida Supreme court).

Now, follow the money folks. If I were Norm, I'd tell everyone who asked me to buy a Delta Unisaw because that's who butters his bread when he sits down at supper. He probably has stock options at this point. He pedals some plans and
videos, signs some autographs. He's a TV personality.

I'm sorry, I don't buy this. I have stock options in my company, one of the largest semiconductor manufacturers in the world; if people were to ask them which processor to buy for their computer, would I tell them to get my company's just because it'll make me more money? **** no. My dignity is more important than that. I tell people the truth, and I don't twist anything around with an agenda to make more money. Anyone who isn't specifically a salesman for a company and pushes products for that company because it might indirectly make
them more money is a whore.

He's doing what he has a passion for which is woodworking and he makes a good coin at it. Can you blame him? Is the guy from Woodcraft going to tell you to buy it at Harbor Freight? I don't think so.

I've had honest salespeople direct me to other businesses when they knew they weren't the right company for me and my needs. This doesn't mean salespeople should go out of their way to steer you to other places, of course, but they shouldn't try to push you into buying stuff that's clearly not right for you.

Considering the show is nearly 20 years old, there aren't many PBS shows (can't even think of 1 other than Sesame Street) that have lasted that long. I'd say everyone is happy at NYW,Delta and PBS, and they're not happy if they're not making money.

Making money? Excuse me, but this show is on PBS, a network that explicitly is out to serve the public interest and not make money. This isn't ABC or Turner Broadcasting, networks whose sole interest clearly is to make money. You'd think that you could trust people on there to be more unbiased.

Being intellectually dishonest in the interest of making a buck may be the American Way these days, but that doesn't make it right.

[Knottscott]

Oh ... right. I looked at the picture, then came back here to compose my reply, and apparently mentally transposed the two contractor-type saws.

Is that all you've got?! I can do far worse than that!

[dwolsten]

I've been resisting the urge to chime in on this one but that gets me. How can anyone who has watched the show and seen the "this program is brought to you by (Porter Cable/Delta)" at the beginning and end expect any other answer?

Simple: I expect honesty from people at all times. If I wanted to listen to biased half-truths, I'd go look for some official product marketing. Just because someone is sponsored by some company doesn't mean they have to lie.

Other shows, such as Hometime do the same thing but maybe not so obvious. Hometime shows the host shopping for lights/fixtures, etc.
Everytime they are at the closest BORG. They don't tell you that, but what other store has orange racking with those funky looking price stickers.

Even our beloved Mike Holmes up here (Holmes on Homes, great show) doesn't endorse any product, but every tool he uses is YELLOW. Hmmmm, wonder what they could be? I'm sure if you look real close at any renovation show, you'll see the guys using mostly one brand of hand held power tool, when you can see them using a tool.

This isn't remotely the same. Using a sponsor's product is one thing, but pushing that sponsor's product like a mindless salesman, to the point of dishonesty (e.g. telling hobbyist woodworkers they need to shell out $$$$ for a Unisaw because nothing else is any good) is another.

These guys are trying to show you how to do and build. They aren't infomercials jamming any one product up your gullet. Just respect what they are capable of. Every show on TV needs sponsors, especially ones on publicly funded TV which don't have an advertisement every 5 minutes.

Apparently, they are jamming one product up our gullets. That's what all the fuss is about. NYW has sponsors; this doesn't mean they need to continually push their products even in question-and-answer forums where people are looking for honest advice, not marketing drivel.

[LarryG]

This isn't remotely the same. Using a sponsor's product is one thing, but pushing that sponsor's product like a mindless salesman, to the point of dishonesty (e.g. telling hobbyist woodworkers they need to shell out $$$$ for a Unisaw because nothing else is any good) is another.

I think that's arguably overstating the situation a bit. Here's the full text of the exchange that was linked to in the OP:

Question:
"I beg to differ, I as well as many others own a Ryobi BT3100 and have ZERO complaints. Being on a limited budget as most folks nowadays it was the best saw I could get for the money I had. I shopped around quite a bit and after much research and review of testimony from BT3000/BT3100 owners I went for it. It has plenty of power, dead on accuracy every time and is extremely versatile. And only a mere $299! I have been and will remain a fan of your show and miss very few episodes but I think that what you have in your shop is not what most of us (weekened woodworkers)have in ours. It wouldnt hurt if your staffers did a little research into what your viewers have in their shops. You might be surprised."

Answer:
"Thanks for writing. In addition to your letter, many viewers felt we were dead wrong to claim that there was really no adequate table saw to be had for 300.00 dollars. They referred us to the Ryobi BT 3000 and many insisted they got acceptable results with this saw. To those woodworkers who have and like this saw we say fine and thanks for bringing it up for consideration. But in our opinion, and we have used the Ryobi, we stand by our conclusion that a well made, heavier, more accurate saw will be a better value in the long run. A good table saw is the fundamental tool in the workshop and having had personal experience using something less for too many years we strongly urge our friends to buy the best table saw they can afford."

The key phrase in there, I think, is this one: in our opinion, and we have used the Ryobi. They're expressing an opinion based on actual experience, and you can't fault them for believing what they believe. You (and many others here) regard the BT3x00 as perfectly adequate for a hobbyist woodworker. The folks at NYW don't. Okay, fine: what we have, then, is an honest difference of opinion. The fact a given opinion isn't one you personally agree with doesn't necessarily reduce it to "marketing drivel."

[Knottscott]

Simple: I expect honesty from people at all times.

...Using a sponsor's product is one thing, but pushing that sponsor's product like a mindless salesman, to the point of dishonesty (e.g. telling hobbyist woodworkers they need to shell out $$$$ for a Unisaw because nothing else is any good) is another....

...Apparently, they are jamming one product up our gullets....

If those two statements were absolutely true, would we really be having any debate about it? Bias is a two way street and it drives lots of view points, opinions, and comments, but it doesn't change absolute truth. Some degree of blindness from bias is present in all of us, but I see it as different than intentional dishonesty. Something triggers our view and opinion of everything. I have no way of knowing if they're being dishonest, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt b/c I don't know. I don't think you're being dishonest, but based on your comments about things I'm not certain they said or portrayed (ie: "like a mindless salesman"), I do sense a degree of bias written into your opinion. Opinions are not truth either. But I thought they stated theirs quite politely without putting too much spin on it. What more can we ask of them? They're in business to make money from producing a TV show, not consulting on our tool purchases. Do we even know what other TV shows have quoted to people who've posed similar questions?

[Russianwolf]

In several cases, they do. In other cases, they trot out the "We don't endorse anything" boilerplate.

Someone else mentioned that it's surely not Norm who is personally answering the questions ... a supposition supported by many of the answers saying something like, "Norm uses a ..." or "We have a ..." It may be that the questions are answered by different people, depending on who's available (read: gets stuck with the job), and perhaps some of them are more open about mentioning Delta while others stick more closely to the non-endorsement policy.

Then I think someone with some knowledge in their office should take a look at those "shop notes" cause I think the Wardrobe Boy is answering some of them. These are the ones that got me the most:

Question:
I am purchasing a Unisaw to replace my current table saw. What advice can you give as to a right or left tilt? I am right handed and generally use the fence to the right of the blade. Dont know if this is the preferred method or not!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer:
We have a right tilt version in our shop. We like it.

and

dont know weither to thank you or curse you norm but i need to say since watching your show and this old house ive built my house and have started making cabinets and furniture.
my question is is there any distinctive difference in either a right or left hand tilt table saw.I plan on purchasing a new Delta. thank you joe chamberlain


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer:
Most woodworkers will be using a right hand tilting arbor.

I think those are two of the best reasons in the world, don't you?

So, if most woodworkers put their blades on backwards and NYW does it and likes it, I guess I should do it too....

[uglystick]

OK... I thought I'd be stirring the pot a little with the original post, but I didn't expect this response! Thanks for the good discussion.

[drumpriest]

The problem with answering the tilt questions incorrectly is that it is freakin dangerous. People new to woodworking getting recommendations that can cause kick-back issues in their future. You'd think that they'd pay more attention to something like that, just from a liability standpoint.

But yeah, I would think most places would say "use what we use", not just because of the corporate sponsers, but because they like their tools.

That said, I will honestly tell you all about my crappy tool picks over the years. ;-)

[SandhillMike]

I certainly agree with the axiom of "buy the best you can afford" when shopping for tools. (I'm a newby in woodworking, but have extensive experience as an auto mechanic). That said, I was one of the lucky ones to get a new BT3100 for $150 after a $50 rebate and the sale price of $200. If you can get a better saw than the BT for $150, I don't know what it would be and besides, it was what I could afford.

[JoeyGee]

Who are you kidding?

OK... I thought I'd be stirring the pot a little with the original post, but I didn't expect this response! Thanks for the good discussion.

You brought up a debate about Norm and Table saws IN THE SAME POST. What did you expect? : )