No good saw for $300

[LinuxRandal]

Do you ignore commercials?

I had read a comment along the lines of only unisaw, YEARS ago on that website. It's why I stopped visiting it.
But I do have to point out, it's NOT NORM"S SHOP, never has been and they have never shown his, that I am aware of.
It's the producers, who gets paid for product placement and advertising (even though they do mark out names) by selling his tapes and such.

I had the chance last year to pick up an old Rockwell unisaw for $500, but since I like walking and living, I decided not to try to kill myself getting it in the shop.

[vaking]

Come on, guys!
Every tool on Norm's show is "provided by" Delta or P-C. What are the chances of Norm saying at his website that a saw made by TTI is good? It does not matter if BT3100 is actually good or bad - Norm has bills to pay. TTI is a competitor and it does not pay Norm for ads. I don't recall Powermatic saws at his show either and they are over $300.

[dwolsten]

"we stand by our conclusion that a well made, heavier, more accurate saw will be a better value in the long run."

Any comments? Do the darksiders on the forum agree?

Personally, I think any table saw without a riving knife and integrated dust collection is a cheap piece of crap. Sure, such features weren't invented or considered important in 1950, but seat belts weren't considered important back then either, and drinking while driving wasn't considered criminal.

So with the BT3100 out of production, I say you can't get a "decent" saw for less than whatever the mega-dollar European machines cost.

Of course, I could also take the position that any saw that doesn't automatically stop when your finger touches the blade is a piece of crap, and so SawStop is the only saw you should even consider, and that Norm's Unisaw is therefore totally unusable.

The only reasonable position here is that everyone has different needs and requirements, and a $300 saw is fine for many people for whom it does the job they need it to do. For this show to say, to an audience composed mainly of hobbyists I would imagine, that they "need" to spend much more money on a tool than they might really need to, is disgusting.

[Hoyden]

Maby a Producer answering Questions

One thing to remember is that possibly it is a show "producer" answering the shop notes questions not Norm. The building is a set as put forward earlier. Norm does the work for the show in this building and he does a first build to get the mistakes out of the way then does the take for the show. any mistakes are edited out. He does show how to use power tools for these projects. I still wish that I had Norms abilities would take a lot less time to get my project done.

[JoeyGee]

I think Norm (or Morash) have gotten better lately...

Sure the big tools are there, but I think there has been an effort to show "more average" tools lately--like his planer mentioned earlier. I believe he has a bigger one, but he has been using the smaller one. He has been using hand tools more and using more "traditonal" techniques lately also. I think they are listening to criticism--at least a little.

The Timesaver is never shown being used any more, and the oscilating edge sander is used very little, too. I am sure they are used of camera, though. Norm HATES sanding, I have heard : )

Yes, maybe I am making excuses, but if I had those tools handed to me, you better believe I would use them. Norm is the reason I got into woodworking. I used to sit in amazement thinking there is NO WAY I could do what he does. Now I am amazed at what I can do--and yes with less tools. All from watching Norm--and a little time on the WWing forums...

[JimD]

I don't think we can criticize Norm for using the tools he probably gets for free from his sponsors. If Ryobi was sponsoring Norm, I bet he could do nearly anything he has done with the Unisaw with a BT3100. Norm ignored wood movement in some of his earlier shows and uses a few more nails than I prefer in some of his projects but I think he makes some nice stuff. I still watch when possible. I have his first book. I get some ideas from his show but I don't think I've built anything to one of his designs - but I might some day. Nothing Norm does is out of the question for those of us with less invested in tools. It may take me a bit longer but I can make what he makes, the question is if it is what I want to make. So far, close but no cigars.

My router table has the same basic layout as Norm's and I like his jig for making holes in cabinets for adjustable shelves. Those ideas alone make watching shows worthwhile to me - and I enjoy watching how he does things.

I considered the hybrid Jet and DeWalt before buying the BT3100. The main reason I bought the Ryobi was not price. I think it allows me to do more. Most saws do not have a great rip fence included nor do most saws have a micropositioner available. The SMT is less useful than I originally thought (I have not found it to be terribly accurate as I use it - some is probably me) but still nice sometimes. My shop is small so the compact size is a definite advantage. I have added extension rails and a cabinet and do not feel disadvantaged relative to a top of the line saw. Nothing that would run on 110V would be significantly more powerful and nothing I have heard or read about is more accurate. I would rather cut more slowly occassionally than run 220V to my table saw for the few times it would make a difference.

Jim

[Russianwolf]

I will go on to say this. In the response to the BT3x the person replying says "we have used the Ryobi". In another note someone asks about Jet Grizzly and Powermatic I believe, the response is "we've never used those brands"

So they have used a Ryobi but not a Jet, Powermatic, or Grizzly????? I find it hared to believe.


I don't mind that all the tools in the shop are providsd free and he uses them to advertise them, but when someone asks you to recommend a saw for $1000 and you reply "look for a used unisaw" or "need more money to get a unisaw" you sound like a idiot. Even Delta make other saws that are very nice that are not the Unisaw.

[Pappy]

And not a blade guard or splitter in sight!

[drumpriest]

Perhaps this post won't make me popular. I personally don't think that Norm Abram is all that and a bag of chips. From looking at his projects, I've seen better come out of people on the forum. He got the show as a trim carpenter, and has learned as he's made the show.

I don't see him as an authority on woodworking. I also personally disagree. If you are going to take a stance that says that you have to spend big money to get a good table saw, I'd go with Laguna or sawstop then. Great features, and lots of money.

I watch the show, and have learned one or two things along the way, but I've seen many woodworkers with whom I'm far more impressed.

[Knottscott]

I think some assumptions are being made and some words are being put in the mouths of the NYW staffer(s) who responded. Nowhere did I read where they suggested that alot of money need be spent.

[drumpriest]

Dust, the idea of " a lot of money " is variable from person to person. The quote was "there is no good 300$ table saw". In fact, he did say that the delta contractor saw was ok, which is normally around 500$+, once in a while you can find them as cheap as 400$.

The other statement was "we strongly urge our friends to buy the best table saw that they can afford". This statement is also highly subjective, as "good" is defined by the purchaser. But there is an implication that more money equals more quality. This is obviously not always the case, or should be obvious to anyone who has spent money on things. Sometimes more $ buys a better tool, sometimes not.

To me, the best saw that I could afford was the BT, to get what I (the purchaser) considered a "better" saw, it would have been a Laguna. Which is more than a uni, but not by a ton.

My other point is that people most likely care what is said based upon the idea that Norm (and his crew representing him) knows what he is talking about. After seeing his router episodes, I'm convinced that I don't believe that I'll be smashing my cutters through lumber like a bull in a china shop. As I said, I like the show, and have learned things from it, but I've had the pleasure of meeting people that I (the observer) would consider better woodworkers, if such a thing can be quantified.

[bmyers]

Don't forget NYW is a TV show

Let's talk about reality for a minute. The New Yankee Workshop is a TV show. TV shows exist directly and indirectly from corporate "sponsorship" and advertising who want to sell you something. That's it. TV shows don't exist for any other reason. Even the nightly news is a TV show and not really obligated to report the truth (that's been ruled on by the Florida Supreme court).

Now, follow the money folks. If I were Norm, I'd tell everyone who asked me to buy a Delta Unisaw because that's who butters his bread when he sits down at supper. He probably has stock options at this point. He pedals some plans and videos, signs some autographs. He's a TV personality.

He's doing what he has a passion for which is woodworking and he makes a good coin at it. Can you blame him? Is the guy from Woodcraft going to tell you to buy it at Harbor Freight? I don't think so.

You asked a TV show personality his OPINION and he gave it to you for free. Can't fault him for that either. They do things perhaps less safely than you should do in the real world, because it's for TV.

Considering the show is nearly 20 years old, there aren't many PBS shows (can't even think of 1 other than Sesame Street) that have lasted that long. I'd say everyone is happy at NYW,Delta and PBS, and they're not happy if they're not making money.

Okay, I'll pass the soap box now... NEXT!!


Bill

One more thing: Don't beleive anything you read on the internet!

[jabe]

I agree with Bill, Norm will endorse his sponsor's products first cause it pays the bills for him. I also learned from watching his programs and used his tapes in my woodshop classes whenever I was absent from school. Don't knock the man's ability, respect him for what he has done.
I used only Unisaws for 25+ years in the school shop b4 retiring, it's a great saw but, I would not buy it. Instead of buying a cabinet saw, I bought a Saw Trax verticle panel saw cause of the small foot print it had and it's easier to cut sheet material without straining your back.
I have a Delta/Rockwell 10" combination tilting table saw/ 6" jointer that's about 70yrs. old and it's still accurate. But I'll use my BT3000 first because of the DC port, riving knife and smt for cross cutting. I do kitchen & bath cabinet jobs for clients everyday and the BT does a great job for me. We all know the BT is the [B]BEST[B]Bang for the Buck table saw for the average guy with limited funds & space issues. I must admit, I would not have known what a great saw the BT is if it wasn't given to me. Although it was broken & rusted/tarnished, after rebuilding it and using it everyday, it really made me a believer.

[Jim Boyd]

There goes the neighborhood! Norm bashing and Unisaw smashing

[just4funsies]

Norm's unlimited budget, unlimited space, three-phase power, and ability to "edit out" his mistakes, puts him in a different world from the one I live in. I admire his knowhow and craftsmanship, but I don't expect him to see things as I do.