Rockler wood prices good?

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Again I have to disagree with Jeff here because the local Rockler here has a good lumber selection, the woodcraft has barely any. I still think it varies from store to store.

I have no idea about Rockler, only Woodcraft. My lumping Rockler with Woodcraft was based upon the assertions of others. I over heard a conversation at Woodcraft the other day between some employees where they were complaining that they couldn't get retail sales figures like the other Woodcraft stores because their margin was higher than the other stores. Could be that even Woodcraft varies pricing on wood. Certainly domestic hardwood prices could be drastically different in certain parts of the country.

[Brian G]

Something also to consider is the amount of waste that doesn't end up in a project. This is "dead money".

I agree with Tom Miller that there still is some milling needed of pre-milled material. (How many "mill" can you get in a sentance? ) Whether that additional milling ends up in a project or in the dust collector can determine whether a Rockler or Woodcraft stick is comparable to a lumberyard stick.

For example. Let's say your very simple finished project (2 equal sized boards) calls for a finished dimension of 3/4" x 4" x 36" each (i.e., 1.5 bf total). My Rockler price for "pre-milled" red oak is $3.85. I can buy a Rockler "pre-milled" board that is actually 13/16" x 5" x 96" (nominal is 3.33bf; actual is 2.7 bf). The board would cost $12.83, of which 1.2 bf ends up in the dust collector, costing me $4.62 in unusable waste.

At my local lumber supplier, I can buy a rough board that is actually 17/16" x 5" x 96" (nominal is still 3.33 bf, actual is 3.54 bf). The cost is $3.25/bf. The board would cost $10.82, of which 2.04 bf ends up in the dust collector, costing me $6.63 in unusable waste if I don't have a way (i.e., bandsaw) to capture the slightly less than 1/4" of thickness waste that I need to mill off to reach my final dimension.

So, the point in my rambling is that you have to account for the waste generated. You use the same amount of lumber in a final project, but the percentage of waste generated is higher if you mill rough boards.

Still, though. . . I'm not giving up my jointer and planer!

One thing I like about my supplier is the extra thickness he gives in his 4/4 stock (a full 17/16"). I can easily get a full 3/4" out of a board, and I now figure that most of my projects can handle a beefy 7/8" final thickness. Now that I have a bandsaw, I think I can "capture" as thin boards the wood that normally would go to the dust collector.

[dwolsten]

Also, be aware that lumber prices are very regional. So if a guy from accross the country gives you a price that they pay for a given species, it may have no bearing on what you'll find in your area.

This is absolutely true. When I see you guys quoting prices of under $2/bf for things like oak and poplar, I'm just amazed. I've never seen ANY wood that cheap. Red oak here in Phoenix is usually around $5/bf, rough-cut! In fact, it's usually cheaper to use Purpleheart from South America than domestic hardwoods like Walnut or Oak. The last lumberyard I visited had small lengths of Purpleheart for $3.50/bf. I'm lucky if I ever see Red Oak for less than $5, and that's only in short lengths. White oak is more of course, and Walnut is usually $5-6 in short lengths. Generally, it makes more sense to use something like African Mahogany, which is only around $4/bf.

BTW, most of the lumber I buy is rough-cut or S2S. I have a lunchbox planer, but for jointing I just use my tablesaw. Especially with smaller parts, it's really not that hard to cut things square on a tablesaw. The stuff sold at HD/Lowes is crap (and horribly overpriced). They only have red oak and poplar, and they don't even have wide widths of red oak: their wider boards are actually glued-up panels of very narrow (2-3") boards. I took one look at that crap and immediately started looking for real hardwood suppliers.

[Russianwolf]

Something also to consider is the amount of waste that doesn't end up in a project. This is "dead money".

I agree with Tom Miller that there still is some milling needed of pre-milled material. (How many "mill" can you get in a sentance? ) Whether that additional milling ends up in a project or in the dust collector can determine whether a Rockler or Woodcraft stick is comparable to a lumberyard stick.

For example. Let's say your very simple finished project (2 equal sized boards) calls for a finished dimension of 3/4" x 4" x 36" each (i.e., 1.5 bf total). My Rockler price for "pre-milled" red oak is $3.85. I can buy a Rockler "pre-milled" board that is actually 13/16" x 5" x 96" (nominal is 3.33bf; actual is 2.7 bf). The board would cost $12.83, of which 1.2 bf ends up in the dust collector, costing me $4.62 in unusable waste.

At my local lumber supplier, I can buy a rough board that is actually 17/16" x 5" x 96" (nominal is still 3.33 bf, actual is 3.54 bf). The cost is $3.25/bf. The board would cost $10.82, of which 2.04 bf ends up in the dust collector, costing me $6.63 in unusable waste if I don't have a way (i.e., bandsaw) to capture the slightly less than 1/4" of thickness waste that I need to mill off to reach my final dimension.

So, the point in my rambling is that you have to account for the waste generated. You use the same amount of lumber in a final project, but the percentage of waste generated is higher if you mill rough boards.

Still, though. . . I'm not giving up my jointer and planer!

One thing I like about my supplier is the extra thickness he gives in his 4/4 stock (a full 17/16"). I can easily get a full 3/4" out of a board, and I now figure that most of my projects can handle a beefy 7/8" final thickness. Now that I have a bandsaw, I think I can "capture" as thin boards the wood that normally would go to the dust collector.

I would have to disagree with some of your comments here.

1)The 96 inch board you started with will have a 23 inch cut off that will go on your "shorts" stack, not in the DC. This wood can be used in another project and should not be considered waste in your calculation. that's .8BF that you shouldn't include in the waste.

2)$3.25 for Rough Oak is pretty high. Looking at three local sources I got prices ranging from $2.10 to 2.75bf for clear. If you go with one of the lower prices you will see a much better arguement for Rough wood.

So, 2.7 - .80 = 1.9 - 1.5 = .4 of waste at $3.85 = $1.54
And 3.54 - .80 = 2.74 - 1.5 = 1.24 of waste at $2.10 = $2.60

BUT

3)the difference in that 13/16ths and 17/16ths that you are using in your waste calc isn't wholely accurate. The 13/16ths board actually started off at 17/16ths also. The waste just went into someone elses DC. You are still paying for that wood even though you didn't take it home. The wood in your DC can be used for other things. (Mix it with glue for matching filler material, Mulch, Grilling, etc. etc.)

So 3.54 - .80 = 2.74 - 1.5 = 1.24 of waste at $3.85 = $4.77

Or 3.33 - .80 = 2.53 - 1.5 = 1.03 of waste nominal at $3.85 = $3.96 compared to $2.10 = $2.16

Another way of putting it is You spent $12.83 and I spent $6.99 (3.33BF at 2.10) and got the same project done and we both have a .8BF cutoff leftover. If we both sold them for $20 who makes more profit?

[tribalwind]

I had very very very(very) good results using " woodplanet"
it's a site and mailing list where you can buy,sell,or make very specific requests.
i bought 500 BDFT of gorgeous aromatic eastern red cedar ,locally it costs $4.50 a bdft,long iland ny,,,upstate was $2.50, but South Carolina was $1.45(i think), such a good savings i decided to have them edge-join and wide belt sand both sides...
i even got offers from Akansas and CT that were $1.00 bdft sadly though arkansas wouldnt help with shipping,and CT was freshly cut and wet..the bonus though was CT said i could request any dimensions as he was cutting it all right then!!...in the future i'll definitely talk to him.. and will use www.woodplanet.com for all my large orders...

[Tom Miller]

Sounds like I will not be running out to Rockler for wood, which is sort of what I suspected.

Do keep your eyes open when you're there, though. My local Rockler tries to get rid of some stock every now and then with some good prices. I picked up over a dozen pieces of 8/4 (full 2" thick) 7" wide x 24" hard maple cutoffs for ~$2/bf. I had a few projects in mind for those lengths.

And during their current sale, I picked up some awesome-looking tiger maple and anigre veneer bundles for 65% off. And I don't even know how to veneer! Yet.

Hey, Brian, care to share the details on your "local supplier"?

Regards,
Tom

[Jeffrey Schronce]

So would anyone be interested in some BEAUTIFUL QUARTER SAWN KILN DRIED RED OAK !?!?!?!? I am getting a load Tuesday 07/11/06. Crazy widths like 12-15" availiable, though that is running a little more. I don't know what shipping would be to AZ though . . . .

Thanks for the woodplanet heads up. That is pretty cool. Instantly found 500bf @ $1.75 Kiln dried Red Oak (flat sawn of course).

[BrazosJake]

Not just no, but HE!! NO!

Lumber prices are highly regional, but I find Rockler and most other woodworking/hobbyist stores outrageous on wood. Of course, I find Rockler way high on everything. My local Woodcraft sometimes has good deals on purpleheart, but that's it. Take out the yellow pages, look under hardwood or lumber, and start calling. I've found 4 local HW suppliers (one is a sawmill) where I typically get hardwood for 1/2 or less what Rockler or Woodcraft charge. I mean, $8 pbf for 4/4 white oak? Gimme a break! Last time I was in a Rockler, they had 4/4 ash priced $6 pbf. I can go to Hogan and get rough #1 common for around $1 pbf, FAS for $2.00 (in fact, they sell to Rockler).

[Brian G]

Mike, I guess I have to counter disagree.

1.) The unused wood, whether dust or a cutoff, still should be considered waste for the current project. Perhaps call it over-run or something, and then consider it "free" for whatever it gets used for next. I easily could have made the hypothetical project a few inches shorter so that only a 72" board was needed. The same correction (as you did in #2) is made for both.

2.) As others have mentioned, prices are very regional. I don't agree with your use of the price that you can get at your lumberyard, in comparison with the price that I have to pay if I get a board at my local Rockler. I don't have a choice to use $2.10 in the calculation. I didn't include whether volume discounts could apply, which would if I bought 200 bf or more. Then my cost for rough would drop a quarter or two. Perhaps the lesson is that each person has to cost it out as we have.

3.) I don't agree with including waste that you never had the opportunity to make (i.e., the nominal values for the 13/16" board) into the comparison. As I stated in the fourth paragraph, if there's no way to relclaim the otherwise usable 1/4" at the expense of jointing and planing it away to achieve final thickness, then it's waste. I could, because I have a bandsaw. Somebody that doesn't would generate way more chips to dispose if they milled 17/16" rough lumber to 3/4" versus a 13/16" S3S board to of the same nominal dimension to 3/4". There's also the time and wear-and-tear to consider.

To the last question, I can't buy it at $2.10/bf, so you would make more. I can buy it at around $3.00 if I volume buy. If I have to pay $3.85 full price, then I'm better off buying from my lumber supplier. If I can get the current 25% off at Rockler, then the gap shrinks considerably. I typically don't buy from the specialty stores unless I need one or two boards and the quality is very good.

Tom

Logs-To-Lumber. He does it as a hobby, mostly. He has great stuff, and is very prideful in the quality of his lumber. He should be, too. It's kiln dried, and stored flat in a humidity controlled storage area. I have not been there in a year. My poor little Accord complains each time.

[Russianwolf]

[QUOTE=Knuckles]Mike, I guess I have to counter disagree.



3.) I don't agree with including waste that you never had the opportunity to make (i.e., the nominal values for the 13/16" board) into the comparison. As I stated in the fourth paragraph, if there's no way to relclaim the otherwise usable 1/4" at the expense of jointing and planing it away to achieve final thickness, then it's waste. I could, because I have a bandsaw. Somebody that doesn't would generate way more chips to dispose if they milled 17/16" rough lumber to 3/4" versus a 13/16" S3S board to of the same nominal dimension to 3/4". There's also the time and wear-and-tear to consider.

QUOTE]

Okay, lets set the other parts aside. If you don't include the original waste, then you have to recalc the bf cost of the wood based on the actuals.

3.33bf nominal @ $3.85 = 12.83 / 2.7bf actual = 4.75 x 1.2bf waste = 5.70
3.33bf nominal @ $3.25 = 10.82 / 3.54bf actual = 3.05 x 2.04bf waste = 6.22

much closer numbers even then.

Can you tell I'm a bean counter.

[Brian G]

I like to make things more complicated than they really need to be.

How about this, instead?

"Buy wood at the best price you can get, for the best quality that you need."